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Post by Audrey on Nov 22, 2002 16:11:43 GMT -5
Today on the bus, this freshman invited these 2 eigth graders to their church. They started making fun of them.
These people have prayer banned from schools, but it most definetly looks like we need prayer in our schools right now to help these children.
Ok, why do you think being Christian is looked down on in our schools today? Why do you think prayer has been banned?
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Post by 80s Child on Nov 22, 2002 17:52:12 GMT -5
"We need prayer in our schools to help these children" How about, instead of praying, we educate them about religious tolerance and about the various religions of the world? Christianity is not, after all, the only religion on the planet, and in about 20 years, it might not even be the biggest (Islam is probably going to hold that role). That would go a long way to helping these kids understand others. As for why Christianity is looked down upon in schools, I think all religions are looked down upon in schools, not just Christianity. Like it or not, we've become a secular society, and religion is just not "done" nowadays. You can do it if you want, but others don't and will likely continue not to. And no, I don't think prayer should be allowed in public schools (private schools are a different matter) -no matter what kind of prayer is done, it is still imposing a set of beliefs on people. That is not what schools should aim to do. If you want to pray, that's fine. Attend a church, or pray at home. You can even set up a prayer group at school, provided it's not faculty-led. Just don't expect many people to join in - remember that this is a secular society.
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Post by Audrey on Nov 22, 2002 18:18:10 GMT -5
Yeah, I see what you're saying from a non-christian point of view. But really, what I'm saying or focusing on, is the fact that Christianity is put down.
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Post by 80s Child on Nov 23, 2002 1:02:26 GMT -5
Actually, I think that other religious traditions are looked down on much more frequently. Last Friday at school (a large public junior college), we had a day where members of the Muslim Student Association had information sessions to educate about the religion. They had a sign up that stated the first pillar of Islam, which I believe is something along the lines of "Allah is the one God, and Muhammed is his last messenger" (those of you who are Muslim can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here). They were told by the security personnel of the school to take it down. In the meantime, our Christian Fellowship club has signs up everywhere about the "love of Jesus Christ" and whatnot, and no one dares say anything to them, because it's "disrespectful". Christianity is still the majority religion, and is still highly approved of. I can assure you that there is plenty of respect for Christianity left everywhere.
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Post by Audrey on Nov 23, 2002 11:01:24 GMT -5
It's just, at least at my school, if you say you are a Christian, you will be looked down on.
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Post by Gabster on Nov 24, 2002 19:03:38 GMT -5
^^^It's the same way in my school. With a lot of people, if you say you're a Christian, all the Christian stereotypes will immediately bombard you. That's why I make it a point to hang out with Christians. Most of my friends go to my church, and most are Christians. I have absolutely nothing against other religions, but it makes it easier to live a life for God when you are surrounded by others who are trying to do the same thing.
Something that really bothered me was during what my church calls CKO. It means Campus Kindness Outreach, and my church does it for a few days out of one week every year. Because my church is really popular, and a lot of high school students go there, they have this thing where every small group plans to do something small to show God's love for people. It could be handing out donuts, candy, whatever. And attached to the thing is a little card with the church address, that says, "We just wanted to show you our love, no strings attached. Let us know if we can be of any more assistance."
Now, one of my friends, who is a Pagan, found out about this, and started yelling @ me about hwo I was "imposing my religion on others" and what about the non Christians, etc. etc. etc.
Excuse me, but how is this imposing religion? True, the church address was on the card, but is that really imposing? Is anyone saying, "We gave you free food so you have to believe in God?" No. We were just trying to brighten people's days in the name of our religion, to be good examples.
Isn't that a part of everyone's religion? I mean, doesn't every religion say that you are supposed to set a good example in the name of whichever higher power you happen to worship? So what on earth is so wrong with trying to bring a little happiness into somebody's day?
Anyways, after arguing my point for a long time, I finally gave up and said, "FINE. If it offends you that much, don't take the candy." To which she replied, "Well, of course I'm going to take the candy. Hell-O, it's free. But screw the church." That's incredibly disrespectful, or @ least, it seemed that way to me. I know that if some random person, not of my religion, handed me a donut and said to have a nice day, in the name of their religion, I would be pleasantly surprised, and try to find out more about their religion.
I just don't see why *everyone* can't respect each other's beliefs.
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Post by 80s Child on Nov 24, 2002 21:55:28 GMT -5
I don't know many Christians who have been stereotyped against. In fact, most of the Christians I know are practically given the royal treatment. It's the members of the other religions around here that have the problems. As for the candy thing, well, I can honestly say that there are other ways of brightening someone's day besides giving them the name of a church. However, I think that what your pagan friend did was very rude. If she didn't believe in what you were doing, no one was forcing her to take that candy. *I* wouldn't have taken it, because I don't believe in it. But I wouldn't force anyone to believe the same as me.
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Post by Toxic-Avenger on Nov 25, 2002 10:48:44 GMT -5
Call it advertising and it's very effective. Churches do this alot and it the cards and verses speak to those who are already searching. As to the "forcing" of religion on someone, that's usually done with a gun to the head. The Taliban are well known for this.
I don't see a problem with prayer in school, many students want it, it's the school superindendants that get their thongs (yes, men too) in a bunch when a student does an inclusive politically correct prayer. But I do hear stories that a student gets in trouble for bowing his head. Because prayer is AGAINST THE LAW. Maybe he just has a headache.
With all the finger-pointing, backstabbing, social pressures, and problems everyone faces today, prayer should be a welcome option. Don't like it, don't do it. You want it, you do it, trust me, it can be very reassuring to yourself.
It's true that for the most part, Christianity is much favored, but there are stories of puzzling reasons why prayer is banned. Nativity scenes that have been in front of Court Houses for 120 years are suddenly offensive to people who never noticed them before. Same with two-word phrases in national songs and pledges. Sad to say but people get O-fended way, way too easily.
Isn't it interesting that you can't sing Christmas carols in schools because you can't mix religion with something else. You can have Hallow'een decorations up. But that's celebrating a religion too. And the very mention of Christmas means, "Christ-mass" or "Celebration of Christ," which has nothing to do with a fat man in red suit delivering toys to rich kids.
Schools lie to you anyway. How many know the real reasons the Pilgrims came here, and that they never wore black suits with big funky buckles on their hats and shoes. Or that George Washington prayed daily and often.
In our rush to accept every idea, we try to make everything matter. What's happening instead, is that nothing matters. And we wonder why people don't respect others, because nothing matters. Why should I respect you, who cares? My reality is different, so since you are not part of my reality, I can't affect you either.
"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we try to deceive."
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Post by 80s Child on Nov 25, 2002 21:08:39 GMT -5
Personally, I'm getting sick of hearing people whine about being discriminated against. This includes those of all backgrounds. "Oh we're sooooo discriminated against" they cry. Let me tell you something - living in an expensive home in the richest neighbourhood in the city, having plenty of food to eat, access to education and a job, and plenty of freedom is NOT discrimination. Just because someone once insulted you or called you a slur is NOT discrimination. Discrimination is not being able to get a job because of your race, gender, ethnicity or religious beliefs. Discrimination is living in disgusting poverty because of your background. Discrimination is being put in a concentration camp. VERY FEW OF US, living in Canada or the U.S., have experienced true discrimination. *Little off-topic rant there - feel free to continue the discussion already in progress now*
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Post by canadiana on Nov 25, 2002 21:38:28 GMT -5
^Yeah, I can understand what you're saying there.
But still...
At my school, we are openly accepting to Ramadan and Diwali and Hanukkah... other religious events which don't involve Christianity. BUT, if it suddenly has something to do with Christianity, such as Christmas, it's immediately looked down upon. Some teachers have been encouraging kids to stop saying "Christmas" altogether. What is that?
If we're supposed to be so open and accepting to other religions... why not Christianity? That's what bothers me.
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Post by Toxic-Avenger on Nov 26, 2002 8:06:01 GMT -5
<<VERY FEW OF US, living in Canada or the U.S., have experienced true discrimination. *Little off-topic rant there - feel free to continue the discussion already in progress now* >>
No, you're right, very few of us in North America have the right to yell about persecution.
However, if we don't remain vigilant, it could get worse than as Canadiana pointed out. And that bugs me too, now we can't say to someone, Merry Christmas when it's our holiday, because we'll run the risk of offending someone, so we have to resort to the generic, "Happy Holidays" or the Oh So boring and generic, "Season's Greetings."
Sad to say, it wouldn't suprise me if teachers are discouraging the mention of Christmas because of fear of lawsuits and other nonsense.
Anyway, if I say Merry Christmas to you, it's not a slap at your religion / beliefs, it's because I want to share something special with you that I enjoy.
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Post by Gabster on Nov 26, 2002 20:09:10 GMT -5
80s child is right....very very few of us have been unfortunate enough to experience true discrimination. However as Toxic pointed out...it could lead to the extremity that so many other places in the world face. Also...aren't America and Canada supposed to be places of religious freedom? Places where your religions *aren't* stereotyped and there's not even the threat of true discrimination lingering? Yes, and it's sad to hear stories like Canadiana's, which are all too frequent.
I know it probably sounds like I'm completely biased as a Christian. But I would feel the same way if the religion was Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, or anything else. I realize the minority has, @ times, been forgotten and that should definitely be corrected. But...not @ the cost of the majority.
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Post by angelprincess <3 on Nov 26, 2002 20:31:52 GMT -5
Here is an interesting article I saw about how PC Christmas is becoming...
Have Yourself a Merry Little Holiday? Tue Nov 26, 9:42 AM ET
TORONTO (Reuters) - Christmas is becoming an endangered word in parts of Canada in a rash of politically correct behavior -- such as renaming a Christmas tree a "holiday tree" -- that even non-Christians dismiss as silly.
Toronto city officials began the flap last week when they called the 50-foot tree set up outside City Hall a "holiday tree." That sparked much derision and prompted the city's mayor to set the record straight.
"Our special events staff went too far with their political correctness when they called it a holiday tree," said Mayor Mel Lastman. "They were trying to be inclusive and their hearts were in the right place, but you can't be politically correct all the time."
The mayor plans to introduce a motion in city council this week that will officially put the word Christmas in front of the word tree in all future city documents.
The name change led to complaints from Christians and left many non-Christians wondering what all the fuss was about. "To take a generic term, slap it on a symbol that really only has significance to one religion...and then say we're being multicultural does not really fit," said Anita Bromberg of the Jewish group B'nai Brith Canada. "Whatever you call it, it's still a Christmas tree."
"You're not being inclusive when you try to apply one religious symbol to everybody. You call it what is."
Toronto has become the most multicultural city in Canada, with communities from around the world and residents who speak more than 100 different languages.
"I'm not sure what they're trying to achieve," Ahmed Shoker of the Canadian Islamic Congress in Saskatoon said on Monday. "Everyone has the full right to celebrate in their own way."
Toronto is not alone in its efforts to stress a holiday spirit rather than talking about Christmas.
The Royal Canadian Mint has a commercial in which it changes the old holiday standard "Twelve Days of Christmas" to "Twelve Days of Giving." But Mint spokesman Phil Taylor said the wording was merely meant to "position coins as a great gift for the holidays for whatever faith."
"It's the same kind of over the top political correctness," said Bernie Farber, Ontario executive director of the Canadian Jewish Congress. "There seems to be a fear within certain circles in Canada that people are going to react to Christmas in a negative way. But it's not the case.
"It's time to sort of get on with life, accept everybody for who they are and revel in their holidays as opposed to look for ways to deny people's holidays. It's just plain silly."
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Post by Ich Liebe Rammstein on Dec 3, 2002 21:55:44 GMT -5
um, maybe because of the different religions?? Really, I don't know.
I don't really think that they are syaing "church is not cool", though. Unless they actually say that. I think paryer in school is a waste of time. Plus, I'd rather do it on my own time. But that's just me.
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Post by Toxic-Avenger on Dec 4, 2002 13:19:57 GMT -5
The problem is, if someone comes from a different country, don't tell me what religion I can celebrate. You don't like prayer or Christmas, go back home.
Religions are fine, but when a Saudi King came to the US early this year, he requested that all women on the base be removed before he stepped on the tarmac, and no women pilots. And our leaders caved and did what he requested. Hey, this is our country and our women! Women who are defending our country and they should be allowed to be anywhere on that miltary base, they earned the right to serve at, they damn well please. Guns, bullet belts, and all! We should have had the king's jet escorted by women flying F-22 Raptors just to make a point.
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