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Post by pettyluv on May 11, 2003 1:40:50 GMT -5
<<ISRAEL expanded into the Muslim territories and beyond>>
Did your teacher happen to mention why?
<<It responded violently and agressively when Muslim countries reacted to having a neighboring country taken over.>>
Yeah, I guess if you consider "reacting" to be a simultaneous invasion of Israel by most Arab states, talk about violent and agressive.
<<Also, do you really think it was somehow an accident that it was an Arab country that was handed over partially to the Jews?>>
Was it an accident that the world felt very guilty for the deaths of six million Jews? Remember, were talking 1948, not 2003.
Remember that in 1948, most Jews in Israel were content with the partition, but the Arab countries invaded and wanted to drive Israel into the sea.
There will never be peace unless it is ingrained in the Arab mind that Israel is there to stay and has a right to exist.
The road-map, isnt really Bush's plan, it was drawn up by the US, UN, EU, and Russia. I think its rather idealistic to think that Israelis and Palestinians could some how live in harmony and share land, at least anytime soon. I think there needs to be two seperate and independant states, because that will eliminate the boogeyman for both sides, and they will have no one to blame for their problems but themselves.
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Post by strangelilboi on May 11, 2003 9:22:35 GMT -5
Bollox to you and your stupid americanisms!
Israel is simply a Jewish concept. Its blatantly bloody obvious that America as a nation is so overly pro-Jewish extremism!
Israel as a nation never existed before some bunch of stupid European politicians decided to plague the Arab world with refugees from Hitler's even dumber 'perfect german nation'. I dont see why the hell the Arab world has to be plagued with a people that, although are origianlly part of them, behave like a bull in china shop.
They will stop at nothing, though they claim otherwise, to eradicate Jerusalem and Israel/Palestine of Muslims. Its not a bloody racial thing. Its a damn religious thing thats hardwritten into their mindset that Muslims are evil and should be cleansed from 'their' land.
The same goes for the Palestinians terrorists, but the other way around.
The land belongs to everyone and no one. And no the reason why they want Jerusalem is because its religiously significant.
The only reason that Jewish people are and always have been so influential is that they are traditionally wealthy. I myself do not count myself as racist but they more often that not tend to close their communities to the rest of the world and alienate us.
This is happening in Jerusalem on a scale that is more like the wild west than the new millenium.
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Post by 80s Child on May 11, 2003 11:41:26 GMT -5
^^That comment about Jews traditionally being wealthy is racist and ignorant. Maybe you yourself are not racist -perhaps you were just raised to believe that. In either case, the majority of Jews throughout history have NOT been rich. Actually, they have been very poor historically. And how did they make money, you ask? Through hard work, educating themselves and busting their butts to get somewhere. The few who now have money have family histories of doing just that. And no, Jews do not think that Muslims should be "cleansed" out of their land. Jews have always respected Muslims, at least until they decided that they hated Jews. Still, a Jew will never resort to violence unless attacked themselves. That is a code of the IDF - do not fight unless you are fought against. Those of you who sit around thinking "Oh, the poor little, oppressed Palestinians" should really take a look at the hard facts. Those "poor" Palestinians have killed many more Jews than the other way around. Maybe if the Palestinians were not strapping bombs to themselves and blowing themselves up, I would take them more seriously. Until then, I see them as a threat. And please stop dismissing the Holocaust as "Hitler's dumb German state". There was MUCH more to it than that. Our generation seems to forget how much bloodshed that war involved, how much fighting went on, and how many were killed, not just Jews but others as well. Have a little respect for the dead other than referring to them as the result of a "dumb German state".
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Post by strangelilboi on May 11, 2003 13:11:34 GMT -5
Well fine then. Apologies to my ignorance.
I dont believe that I'm the only one person in the world that has concluded that Jewish people were traditionally wealthy. Its might be how a lot of people throughout history have seen them come across as.
Either way, I still hold to my statement that quite a few of them close their communities up to the whole world. That is why they are misunderstood, possibly. I'm not saying they are evil or anything in that vein. All I'm saying is that it is not just the Arab world that has a mistrust of their intentions and movements.
My comment on the cleansing was not directed in anyway to a normal Jewish person. But I'm still saying Judaism and Islam have ingrown into them a silent suspision (sorry cant spell) leading to hatred.
What the governments and religious leaders on either side are doing is inciting this hatred from the mistrust in the common man and using it as propoganda. I disagree completely that more Israeli's have died that Palestinians.
I say that the people that died in this conflict are as worthy of respect as the Holocaust.
What makes the Palestinian case more on their side is that Israel as a civilised government, shows no remorse for the innocent civilians that are constantly being killed by their troops. Yes they might be mistakes, but still.. not even an apology.
By the way, my comment on the German state referred to Hitlers manic ideals and NOT the Holocaust.
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Post by 80s Child on May 11, 2003 14:03:57 GMT -5
^^Just because everyone thinks that Jews are rich does not make it true. Everyone believed at one point that the Earth was flat, was that true? I rest my case. How can you disagree with fact?! LOOK AT THE NUMBERS. The Arabs started this latest intifada, and they are responsible for more deaths than the Israelis ever have been. LOOK AT THE NUMBERS and see for yourself how much more damage one side has caused than the other.
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Post by strangelilboi on May 12, 2003 9:18:04 GMT -5
If you do have figures please post them on. Because well i'd like to see them either way, as they would be interesting.
Btw I DID take it back about Jews being rich! Cut me some slack sometimes. I do say things that are more opinion than sense, let me take them back. The more you attack me about one thing, the more obvious it is that you are running out of things to say.
Oh, yeah btw its not every Palestinian that wants Israelis dead. Neither the other way around. It is a minority radical part of their population. But there is always a bunch of manic people that happen to be influential that force their opinion on the whole population.
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Post by 80s Child on May 12, 2003 14:46:21 GMT -5
I do NOT believe that all Arabs want all Israelis dead. In fact, I get plenty of crap from my fellow Zionists because I don't hold those beliefs. I said Arab EXTREMISTS like Islamic Jihad etc. Do not put words in my mouth. I have to look up the figures. I'll be back to post them later. By the way, sorry if you were offended, but I REALLY get my back up when I hear stupid stereotypes like that. It' not your fault, it's the fault of a society that teaches us in terms of stereotypes. Once again, my apologies for being rude.
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Post by strangelilboi on May 13, 2003 12:49:43 GMT -5
Yeah I should apologise myself. I'm seriosuly not racist.
I mean first of all. I'm asian and I been brought up to be Muslim so I'm pretty much a minority myself.
I didnt mean it the way it sounded at all. But dont you think that they way a lot of minority ethnic and religious groups - Jewish people, Muslims, Arabs, etc - cut themselves off from the rest of their society and build like a world inside a bubble, it just breeds antisocial feeling and behaviour?
I mean yeah i'm part of that. They way a lot of people in my family and family friends think is disgusting to say the least. I'm ashamed to be associated with some of these people sometimes.
I think: not knowing and not understanding and not being used to, breeds suspision which leads to mistrust and hatred.
comments?
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Post by -*- Little Miss Strawberry -*- on May 13, 2003 15:36:58 GMT -5
I didnt mean it the way it sounded at all. But dont you think that they way a lot of minority ethnic and religious groups - Jewish people, Muslims, Arabs, etc - cut themselves off from the rest of their society and build like a world inside a bubble, it just breeds antisocial feeling and behaviour?
To give an example (no I'm not racist, this is facts) I live in a generally Muslim area which is fine. I'm white, I don't find it a problem, if I did I wouldn't live here. Anyways, my brother was walking along, just looked at some Asian guys are they started abusing him and shouting at, and following him, and I have to say that some of the people in the streets really do intimate me, some of the men look me up and down and make me feel really quite uncomfortable. They're not that friendly and they do cause a lot of the violence in the UK, as do Afro-Caribbeans, etc. It's a proven fact that it's the ethnic minorities which cause most of the violence in the UK. Of course this doesn't mean whites don't do violence, but they don't do it all, and this is one reason why people in the UK don't like the sound of asylum seekers. Of course, this shouldn't mean whites are racist, however perhaps this helps to explain the less than happy feelings towards ethnic minorities. I agree with strangelilboi on that statement.
...Quite a heated conversation guys! It's a tricky issue, and there's pointers for either side... as long as we all remember that as you have then we can discuss without too much conflict.
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Post by m on May 14, 2003 6:45:39 GMT -5
It depends on the term, "racist." If someone were to make fun or or have some fear of a Nationality or somone's ancestry, that is not racist. It's Prejudice, but not racist. Neither are comments made against someone's sexual preference. It is not a race.
Racism involves not only prejudice, but making fun of them about their skin color, and can be as bad as keeping someone from a job, a promotion, or housing. So racisim is being against someone who is white, black, Asian, and other.
Now here is where it gets sticky. The Jews are God's chosen people, and this might sound loaded but that's the way of the world. Therefore, they have the right, maybe the duty to live where they do, the land of Israel. The Old testament instructs us that anyone who curses Jews, will be cursed by God, and anyone who honors the Jews, will be honored by God. Couple that with the four Gospels of the New Testament where the Gospel is to be presented to "the Jew first, then the Gentile." So there is a very deep and important spiritual aspect for the existence of Israel.
It wasn't a land grab. And the surrounding nations GAVE Israel the land they have now, there was no Palestine as I said earlier.
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Post by -*- Little Miss Strawberry -*- on May 14, 2003 9:54:45 GMT -5
^^^ Seeing you brought religion up, the Arabs also descend from Abraham. God said he would give Abraham many descendants... the Arabs are just as much Abrahams descendants as the Jews are in many senses. The NT, however, does say that "there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ". As a Christian I believe that God does not see us for our race or background but rather that we respond appropriately to him. Therefore I just wish the issue would be resolved fairly, I don't wish to take the side of any group as I don't think there is anyone that is fully right.
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Post by m on May 14, 2003 11:24:44 GMT -5
I agree that the Arabs have just as much a right as the Jews to live in the land. The land was given, fairly. Both worked together. In fact Israel was a wastelend before 1947. It was only in the last few decades that it became attractive real estate.
If God does not see race or color, then why did He create such a rich mix of peoples? Skin color and hair types. The intent was to live together, but the Fall screwed that up. And maybe that's the problem, we're trying to force everyone, traditions, and ways of life and everything into one box or category and it doesn't work that way. Are we being racist then, by refusing to recognize they exist?
The Utopian Ideal that we all get along is great, but it has to start by RECOGNIZING the differences. It'd be like me telling you what to wear, or even to drop your religion to please me. How you are is your identity. Race is an identity, whether we like it or not. And some are very proud of the fact that they ARE Asian, black, white, Hispanic, Arab, American Indian. I mean if you tell an American Indian he's just like a white man and he should drop his traditions, you will have a fight on your hands.
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Post by strangelilboi on May 14, 2003 13:55:01 GMT -5
The thing is Religion is such that each religion passionately and stongly belives something.
Like Jews believe that they are Gods chosen people. Christians and Muslims believe in retribution. Hindu's believe in retribution and fate and energies and reincarnation. Buddhists believe that negative energy has to be avoided by doing and being good.
Thus it is hard to put such a varied mixture of people together and not get trouble, especially when they compare beliefs.
Utopia is a beautiful idea. I personally live in hope. I mean we dont live in a world where it takes years to get places. Therefore people move around and different races get displaced everywhere. The sooner we learn to live and celebrate the differences between us and our neighbours, the better our country is going to be.
As I was saying, the problem with religion is its jsut a matter of opinion. The jews believe that the land is theirs; the muslims believe that they will be fighting for the same land for eternity - this is from Scripture of the Quran and sayings.
Its religious land that belongs to everyone. Its like someone hogging the basketball during a match... its irritating isnt it?
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Post by paradoxPanda on Jun 26, 2003 17:50:49 GMT -5
Like Jews believe that they are Gods chosen people.
That does seem to be the major sticking point, keeping Jews from allowing that the Palestinians deserve a homeland, from what I see. Certainly some Jews don't believe that the millenium when Arabs ruled the area matters, because in THEIR religious texts the land was given to them.
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Post by pettyluv on Sept 11, 2003 12:39:26 GMT -5
Drudge Report: Israel's security Cabinet decides in principle to expel Arafat but puts off immediate action, Israeli TV reports... Developing... www.drudgereport.com
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