|
Post by Toxic-Avenger on May 1, 2002 11:45:03 GMT -5
<<The way I see it, it's now become a matter of pride for the Palestinians to get their land back. >> So it would be a matter of pride also for Israel to keep the land. It's at a point now, where both need to cool it and both need to figure out what to do. Israel isn't going anywhere and neither are the Palestinians. <<It is not the fault of the United States.>> You''re denying US support of Isreal? We support Israel, but even if we didn't or had not, the problems would still be the same. Israel would still be attacked by the Palestinians, and the US would still have been targeted by Osama. <<I doubt it. I doubt that the muslim nations hate America for being America. >> Then they had no reason to attack us, which they did. <<Don't flatter yourself.>> << The grudge they hold is that the US (a total outsider, note) supports Israel against them. Isn't that understandable? >> The grudge is two religions clashing, it's as old as man has been around. <<It vetoes, supplies grants, allows lands to be confiscated and people to be humiliated. The US is reported to give the Israeli Government $3 billion per year. . . . With all this Americans still wonder why they're being blamed." >> None of this matters. If the situation were different, such as America never supporting Israel, it would not have changed anything. <<How can you blame the arabs for being bitter about the existence of Israel? >> They didn't have a problem with each other before. When Israel was settled, the Jews and Arabs worked the land together and it was all good. <<The real problem is how the Arabs were thrown out of their own land to make way for the Israelis. >> If that's true, why didn't the Arabs fight harder to keep their land?
|
|
|
Post by sophisticated_cat on May 1, 2002 15:07:27 GMT -5
Toxic_Avenger:~
Well Busybodies has taken the words out of my mouth, so I won't repeat what she said.
As for:~
<<Had the U.S. never supported Israel in any way, we still would be hated by Muslim nations and still attacked by Osama bin-Laden. So our support of Isreal is incidental in all of this......None of this matters. If the situation were different, such as America never supporting Israel, it would not have changed anything. >>>
Like what Busybodies said, don't flatter yourself. They are so many other democracies in the world and we have nothing against those countries. In the 40s the Arabs were against the British, beacuse they were the ones supporting the Israelis, and they had nothing against the Americans......and now it's vice cersa.
Now I have quoted this from the davidduke website, he is anti-semetic, so he won't be with the Arabs or the Jews, but will American interests at heart.
"In May of 1998 Bin Laden was interviewed by reporter John Miller of ABC. Bin Laden talks about why he seeks to attack America. You can find it on the ABC and the PBS websites. Here are excerpts of Bin Laden's own words.
"For over half a century, Muslims in Palestine have been slaughtered and assaulted and robbed of their honor and of their property. Their houses have been blasted, their crops destroyed…<br> "This is my message to the American people: to look for a serious government that looks out for their interests and does not attack other people's lands, or other people's honor. And my word to American journalists is not to ask why we did that but ask what their government has done that forced us to defend ourselves…"
"So we tell the Americans as people, and we tell the mothers of soldiers and American mothers in general that if they value their lives and the lives of their children, to find a patriotic government that will look after their interests and not the interests of the Jews…<br> I say to them that they have put themselves at the mercy of a disloyal government, and this is most evident in Clinton's administration… We believe that this administration represents Israel inside America. Take the sensitive ministries such as the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense and the CIA, you will find that the Jews have the upper hand in them. They make use of America to further their plans for the world…<br>In the interview, Laden never said one word about opposing democratic principles, nor has he ever done so in his lifetime. So, now we know Laden's true motivation. He attacked us not because he "hates democracy, but because he thinks Israel controls and uses America to attack his people. "
"We have been told that the attackers were simply crazy, cowardly men who committed a quote "unprovoked attack." Media and government spokesmen repeatedly assured us that these attacks had "nothing to do with America's support of Israel." The official view, as expressed by the President to the U.S. Congress was that the terrorists attacked us because they hate our freedom! Here is an excerpt of his remarks before Congress Americans are asking "Why do they hate us?"
They hate what they see right here in this chamber: a democratically elected government. Their leaders are self-appointed. They hate our freedoms I am not trying to be disrespectful, but what he said is so ridiculous that even this intellectually-challenged President cannot really believe it. Does Bush really think that a bunch of young men would give up their families, their homes, and immolate themselves in a huge ball of fire simply because they hate our democracy! Right on Mr. President! Next week, will we will hear about Islamic kamikazes crashing planes into Iceland, the oldest enduring democracy on earth. "
|
|
|
Post by sophisticated_cat on May 1, 2002 15:10:54 GMT -5
I listen to Bin Laden's interviews in arabic and he speaks of Palestine and of people being slaughtered, etc , and not of destroying democracies. I myself am an Arab, so I know what Arabs think of Americans!!! Arabs in general like the American people a lot, coz they find them friendly, etc, but hate the American government/it's international policies for what it is doing to support Israel against Palestine and we have nothing against your democracy. Busybodies is not an Arab, but she has lived among Arabs almost all her life, so she knows what the Arabs think of America, this situation!
<<If that's true, why didn't the Arabs fight harder to keep their land?>>
Should I really answer this question? during the 20th century, the Arab countries, Jordan, Egypt, Sudan, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, Lebanon, Palestine, etc were all fightening for their independence from the British, French and Italians.... their economy had gone to the countries that colonised them, any money they had themselves went to any revolutions against those countries, then the world wars came, and they were sent by the countries that colonised them to fight the Germans, etc (such as the Algerians were sent by the French to fight, and thousands of Algerians were killed, etc)...all these Arab countries were fighting for the independence, or had just gotten rid of being colonised...also they didn't have the most advanced of weapons, but had leftovers and were behind, while Israel had Britian or USA providing it with the most advanced of weapons, that even when 3 Arab countries united to fight Israel, the latter won. Even nowadays the Palestinians are using stones and home made bombs, and the Israelis are using F-16s and tankers, and then you still ask why don't the Arabs fight harder?
|
|
|
Post by pettyluv on May 1, 2002 17:05:00 GMT -5
<<The way I see it, it's now become a matter of pride for the Palestinians to get their land back. They are willing to send their sons to die in the name of Palestine. >>
In the name of Palestine? When has a Palestinian state existed? They send their sons to intentionally kill civilians, I can in no way comprend that to be a cause that is noble. There will be a free Palestinian state, that will be sovereign, but the sovereignty of Israel must also be insured.
<<displacing more than 900,000 Arabs before 1955, who eventually ended up in refugee camps>>
Not to mention some of their Arab brethren that exiled the refugees. I agree with you that the refugees should be compensated, but their land cannot be given back, especially when it has been industrialized such as it has in many cases. It would be like American Indians demanding New York back.
<<How can you blame the arabs for being bitter about the existence of Israel? >>
How can you blame the Israelis for being sour about suicide bombings in their back yards?
<<Now I have quoted this from the davidduke website, he is anti-semetic, so he won't be with the Arabs or the Jews, but will American interests at heart. >>
I'm sorry but this is filth. David Duke is an ugly person, he was once head of the KKK. People like this gain no esteem in the eyes of a learned American public. I have no respect for such a man or what he has to say. I told you at Razz and I will tell you here, David Duke is an evil man.
<<but hate the American government/it's international >>
But we are the government. The policies that the US engages in are usually suported by the people, because it was the people that gave them their right to govern, and if they do not comply with the people's wishes, they will no longer get elected.
<<...Palestine...>>
I don't think that Palestine was ever a country before the partition.
<<such as the Algerians were sent by the French to fight, and thousands of Algerians were killed, etc>>
Many Algerians saw themselves as patriotic Frenchmen, Algeria, out of all of imperialism had one of the closest ties to its colonizer.
<<while Israel had Britian or USA providing it with >>
Because if we didnt, the Arabs would have run Israel into the sea.
<<that even when 3 Arab countries united to fight Israel, the latter won. >>
Not only did they unite, they united in agression against Israel. As with most of the Arab-Israeli wars, the Arabs were the agressors.
|
|
|
Post by busybodies on May 2, 2002 7:26:14 GMT -5
<<We support Israel, but even if we didn't or had not, the problems would still be the same. Israel would still be attacked by the Palestinians, and the US would still have been targeted by Osama.>> Israel would have been attacked, no doubt about that. Though I woudlnt' call reclaiming your land 'attacking'. As for the US being targetted by Osama... I'll leave that alone. I think I already made my point clear. <br><<Then they had no reason to attack us, which they did.>> Let me put it this way- if Canada (this is just an example) supported Asian immigrants' (again, an example) claim for a land of their own in the heart of America, what would you do? Sit tight or take up the matter? <<None of this matters. If the situation were different, such as America never supporting Israel, it would not have changed anything.>> How would that be? Germany- largest economy in Europe- not targetted. Britain- strong *prominent* country in Europe- not targetted. Canada- largecountry, big economy- not targetted. Do you think the US was targetted just for the heck of it? Like, oh I feel like flying a plane into a building, why not do it in New York? Just so that you know... I don't support/condone Sept11th, so don't think I do and don't think I'm being insensitive. <<If that's true, why didn't the Arabs fight harder to keep their land?>> As much as it may shock you, not all countries are as strong as America, especially t that time when everyone in Asia and Africa were rebuilding their countries. Anyways, sophisticated_cat said the needful. <<Busybodies is not an Arab, but she has lived among Arabs almost all her life, so she knows what the Arabs think of America, this situation!>> More than knowing what the Arabs think, I see both sides of the story. I am not restricted to one view. Just thought I'd say that And yeah, like sophisticated_cat said, the Arabs don't hate Amrica as a country, nor do they hate American people. I know quite a few arabs who've been to America and even studied in universities there, and who love it. What they are angry with the USA for are it's policies over this issue. But taht was off-topic... <<In the name of Palestine? When has a Palestinian state existed?>> <<I don't think that Palestine was ever a country before the partition.>> I'm pretty sure Palestine existed. Wasn't it a British protectorate since 1910? <<They send their sons to intentionally kill civilians, I can in no way comprend that to be a cause that is noble.>> If you were Palestine, you would be able to. <<It would be like American Indians demanding New York back.>> Or the Jews demanding land from Palestine back in 1947. <<How can you blame the Israelis for being sour about suicide bombings in their back yards?>> I'm sorry. Suicide bombings are carried out in plenty in Sri Lanka by the Tamils and nobody gives a shit. They killed the President of SL, Prime Ministers, Mnisters, Ambassadors, civilians and they didn't limit themselves to the borders of SL. But then... it's an Asian country. Why should *anyone* give a damn? <<Because if we didnt, the Arabs would have run Israel into the sea.>> And that would be your intention too if you were in Palestine's position. <<As with most of the Arab-Israeli wars, the Arabs were the agressors.>> I suppose reclaiming land is classed as agression when the Arabs have to do it. And let's not forget the Suez war of 1956 when even America denounced Israel's aggression.
|
|
|
Post by sophisticated_cat on May 2, 2002 8:28:21 GMT -5
<<In the name of Palestine? When has a Palestinian state existed?>> Well that area is Arab land. Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, that whole area was called ‘Bilad Al-Sham” in Arabic (don’t know what u call it in English) and was under Othman Muslim rule, until the colonizers came and divided it into the four countries. <<they united in agression against Israel>> Well of course they will try to get Arab land back! <<I'm sorry but this is filth. David Duke is an ugly person, he was once head of the KKK>> I am not for anyone who is racist, but I find the articles that I had posted very good and true facts, and if you disagree with the articles, plz comment on the articles that I had posted, which he has taken from reliable sources. I will now also add from the ABC website extracts from the interview with Osama bin Laden abcnews.go.com/sections/world/dailynews/terror_980609.htmlJohn Miller: You have been described as the “World’s Most Wanted Man.” There is word that the American government intends to put a price on your head in the millions for your capture. Do you think about that? Does it worry you? Osama Bin Ladin: Praise be to Allah. It does not worry us what the Americans think. What worries us is pleasing Allah. The Americans impose themselves on everyone who believes in his religion and his rights. They accuse our children in Palestine of being terrorists. Those children that have no weapons and have not even reached maturity. At the same time they defend a country with its airplanes and tanks, and the state of the Jews, that has a policy to destroy the future of these children. Clinton stands after Qana and defends the horrible massacre that severed the heads of children and killed about 100 persons. Clinton stands and claims Israel has the right to defend itself. We do not worry about American opinion, or the fact the place prices on our heads. We as Muslims believe that our fate is set. If the whole world decides to get together and kill us before our time has come, we will not die, our livelihood is set. No matter how much pressure America places on the regime in Riyadh to freeze our assets and to prevent people from contributing to this great cause, we rely on Allah. John Miller: Mr. Bin Ladin, you have issued a fatwa calling on all Muslims to kill Americans where they can, when they can. Is that directed at all Americans, just American military, just Americans in Saudi Arabia? Osama Bin Ladin: As we mentioned before, Allah ordered us in this religion to purify Muslim land of all non-believers, and especially the Arabian Peninsula where the Ke’ba is. After WWII, the Americans became more aggressive and oppressive, especially in the Muslim world. We are surprised this question is coming from Americans. Each action will solicit a similar reaction. We must use such punishment to keep your evil away from Muslims, Muslim children and women. American history does not distinguish between civilians and military, and not even women and children. They are the ones who used the bombs against Nagasaki. Can these bombs distinguish between infants and military? America does not have a religion that will prevent it from destroying all people. Your situation with Muslims in Palestine is shameful, if there is any shame left in America. In the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, a cooperation between Zionist and Christian forces, houses were demolished over the heads of children. Also, by testimony of relief workers in Iraq, the American led sanctions resulted in the death of over 1 million Iraqi children. All of this was done in the name of American interests. We believe that the biggest thieves in the world and the terrorists are the Americans. The only way for us to fend off these assaults is to use similar means. John Miller: The American People by the large do not know the name Osama Bin Ladin, but they soon will. Do you have a message to the American people? Osama Bin Ladin: I say that the American people gave leadership to a traitorous leadership. This became very clear and especially in Clinton’s government. The American government, we think, is an agent that represents the Israel inside America. If we look at sensitive departments in the present government like the defense department or the state department, or sensitive security departments like the CIA and others, we find that Jews have the first word in the American government, which is how they use America to carry out their plans in the world and especially the Muslim world.
|
|
|
Post by sophisticated_cat on May 2, 2002 8:31:13 GMT -5
The presence of Americans in the Holy Land supports the Jews and gives them a safe back. The American government, in a time where there are millions of Americans living on the street and those living below the standard of living and below the poverty line, we find the American government turning toward helping Israel in occupying our land and building settlements in the Holy Land. So, we tell the American as a people, and we tell the mothers of soldiers, and American mothers in general, if they value their lives and those of their children, find a nationalistic government that will look after their interests and not the interest of the Jews. The continuation of the tyranny will bring the fighting to America, like Ramzi Yousef and others. This is my message to the American people to look for a serious government that looks out for their interest and does not attack others, their lands or their honor. John Miller: From history, in 1897, Teddy Roosevelt was a wealthy man who grew up in a privileged situation who fought on the frontline, put together his own team not from the army, handpicked his own men and went into battle. You are like the Middle East version of Teddy Roosevelt. Osama Bin Ladin: We are worshipers of Allah and we carry out our duties. Our duty is to call on all nations to join the light. Our first duty is being people of this religion and to fight for this religion. Since we grew up, American weapons were on our heads and the heads of our children and mothers, like in Qana and others. The Westerners have been under the impression that we are butchers. They just only need to look at their brother in Eastern Europe, Turkey and Albania to see those who embraced Islam and lived happily with it for centuries. (and to answer “But we are the government…”) The Westem masses have fallen under the effect of Jewish media who do not broadcast on Muslims except that we butcher, and without showing that of number of those us who were butchered is the biggest number.
You see Toxic bin Laden has never uttered a word against Democracy!
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, October 8th.
Ariel Sharon is sought for trial by the Hague Tribunal, the same body that succeeded in extraditing former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic for charges of crimes against humanity in Kosovo. Sharon will not travel to Belgium for fear of arrest by the International Court for the massacre. (United Press International. (2001) Sharon fears to visit Belgium. Sept. 7).
Although he is sought for his Chatila and Sabra murders, Sharon could be tried for any of a dozen other massacres committed during his sterling career, crimes against humanity that go back at least as far as 1953. The Israeli newspaper, Ha’aretz, recalls Sharon’s leading of a massacre in the village of Kibya in 1953, “The soldiers of Major Ariel Sharon killed 70 Palestinians in the reprisal raid, most of them women and child. Ha'aretz. (2001). As long as he doesn't hurt us again. Feb. 16, 2001)
America, which clamored for the Hague Tribunal to arrest and try Milosevic, pretends to be unaware of Sharon’s mass murder. Instead of handing Sharon an arrest warrant for mass murder and putting him in the shackles that he deserves, President Bush greets Ariel Sharon with handshakes and hugs! How the world must snicker in disbelief when Bush confers with Sharon on “fighting terrorism.”If President Bush is truly serious about punishing nations that support or harbor terrorists, he will have to begin with Israel, a nation that elected one of the world’s worst terrorists and mass murderers as its the Head of State. Does America’s Israel-controlled Senate punish Israel for harboring terrorists? No, instead supply their terrorists with billions of American taxpayer’s dollars and the very weapons with which they kill!
|
|
|
Post by Toxic-Avenger on May 3, 2002 13:04:26 GMT -5
<< Like what Busybodies said, don't flatter yourself. >>
And as I said before. ?
<<Now I have quoted this from the davidduke website, he is anti-semetic, so he won't be with the Arabs or the Jews, but will American interests at heart. >>
As he is a member of the Klu Klux Klan, David Duke is not just anti-semitic but anti-everyone else. He does not represent me or other Americans. I do not support him or his twisted ideals.
As for the Palestinians being slaughtered, were they not living peacefully among the Jews until the last several years?
<<"So we tell the Americans as people, and we tell the mothers of soldiers and American mothers in general that if they value their lives and the lives of their children, to find a patriotic government that will look after their interests and not the interests of the Jews…>>
Sounds like Semitic people have a tough time getting along with each other too. <<In the interview, Laden never said one word about opposing democratic principles, nor has he ever done so in his lifetime. So, now we know Laden's true motivation. He attacked us not because he "hates democracy, but because he thinks Israel controls and uses America to attack his people. " >>
I'd say bin-Laden's methods need a little work. Slamming jets full of people into buildings full of people is probably not the best diplomatic solution. <br> <<"We have been told that the attackers were simply crazy, cowardly men who committed a quote "unprovoked attack." Media and government spokesmen repeatedly assured us that these attacks had "nothing to do with America's support of Israel."
They don't. We would have been hit even if Israel never existed. We were hit because we apparently stand in the way of Islamic Militants.
<<I am not trying to be disrespectful, but what he said is so ridiculous that even this intellectually-challenged President cannot really believe it. Does Bush really think that a bunch of young men would give up their families, their homes, and immolate themselves in a huge ball of fire simply because they hate our democracy! >>
People do stupid things. bin-Laden was delighted that this was carried out and even laughed at the attackers as if saying, "Boy weren't they suprised." As for our President being dumb, that's a tired argument since he obviously isn't. If someone doesn't like him or his leadership choices that's fine, but I'd hardly call him dumb.
<<Arabs in general like the American people a lot, coz they find them friendly, etc, but hate the American government/it's international policies for what it is doing to support Israel against Palestine and we have nothing against your democracy. >>
But innocent people were killed, not our Goverment. Instead of raising conscousness about the trouble in the ME all it did was increase the hatred and prejudice some Americans have for non-American people, and make others think maybe the prejudiced people are on to something. <br> <<Even nowadays the Palestinians are using stones and home made bombs, and the Israelis are using F-16s and tankers, and then you still ask why don't the Arabs fight harder? >>
Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Egypt, doen't Palestine have any military allies? <br> <<How would that be? Germany- largest economy in Europe- not targetted. Britain- strong *prominent* country in Europe- not targetted. Canada- largecountry, big economy- not targetted. Do you think the US was targetted just for the heck of it? Like, oh I feel like flying a plane into a building, why not do it in New York? >>
Europe has tighter security and while it has a democracy, some of it's ways, means, and laws are tougher. It has its interests in the world too. The US was attacked because of what it represents.
|
|
|
Post by Toxic-Avenger on May 3, 2002 13:05:14 GMT -5
<<Just so that you know... I don't support/condone Sept11th, so don't think I do and don't think I'm being insensitive.>>
No, I hear ya. <<What they are angry with the USA for are it's policies over this issue. But taht was off-topic...>>
Not off topic, it's a good chunk of the discussion. But don't (that is al-Queda) attack us and expect us to scratch our heads, clean up the mess and keep going about our lives. <br> I looked all over for a map of Palestine, library and internet and couldn't find one. Israel is all over the place but I cannot find PALESTINE on a map of the Middle East. <<How can you blame the Israelis for being sour about suicide bombings in their back yards?>> I'm sorry. Suicide bombings are carried out in plenty in Sri Lanka by the Tamils and nobody gives a shit. They killed the President of SL, Prime Ministers, Mnisters, Ambassadors, civilians and they didn't limit themselves to the borders of SL. But then... it's an Asian country. Why should *anyone* give a damn?>>
The only reason I even know about this is because you told me. I had to look it up on the internet. As to why the civil war in Sri-Lanka is not covered by the media, the sad truth is it does not affect us much. Or it's has been covered but the intrest in it has subsided. You watch, the war in Afghanistan will be "old news" in a few months. <br> You and I may not feel that way, but we can't force news media corporations to do something they don't feel is financially rewarding to them. And I'm sure there are people that would raise absolute hell in the US if they found out about the war in Sri-Lanka and wondered why we aren't helping somehow. <br> <<just Americans in Saudi Arabia? <br>Osama Bin Ladin: As we mentioned before, Allah ordered us in this religion to purify Muslim land of all non-believers,>>
Okay, if the Government of Saudi Arabia wants us to leave, all it has to do is ask. Attacking us is not a good way to make a request known. If we are accused of being evil it's because we will fight for what we believe in also. <br> <<They are the ones who used the bombs against Nagasaki. Can these bombs distinguish between infants and military?>>
Japan didn't ask that question when they bombed Pearl Harbor. They would have put those infants in the way of gunfire when they got desperate enough. I'm sure after they used up all thier young men, the children would have been next. We saved not only our own soldiers, but lives in Japan as well. That sounds ironic, but the Bomb helped stop WWII. That is how lives were saved, or the war would have lasted another five years.
<< America does not have a religion that will prevent it from destroying all people. >>
Neither does the rest of the world.
<<Also, by testimony of relief workers in Iraq, the American led sanctions resulted in the death of over 1 million Iraqi children. >>
Saddam has it in for his own people too. He gasses the Kurds killing thousands of innocents. If he'd stop threatening the world with weapons and biological warfare, he'd get the wealth of his country back. If he wasn't so unstable in his mind.
<<You see Toxic bin Laden has never uttered a word against Democracy! >>
In so many words, maybe. But he certainly has a problem with it.
|
|
|
Post by Semi-Charmed.Life on May 3, 2002 17:35:01 GMT -5
<<They would have put those infants in the way of gunfire when they got desperate enough.>>
Oh and how can you be so sure? It might sound shocking and absurd but some people have something called morals. A concept the American government lacks.
<<We saved not only our own soldiers, but lives in Japan as well. That sounds ironic, but the Bomb helped stop WWII. That is how lives were saved, or the war would have lasted another five years. >>
That is one of the most disgusting statements I have heard. Brainwashed. That is what I label anyone who believes something like that. Former US president Harry Truman is one of history's most notorious terrorists.
<<In so many words, maybe. But he certainly has a problem with it. >>
How do you know that he has a problem with democracy?
<<Okay, if the Government of Saudi Arabia wants us to leave, all it has to do is ask.>>
America hasn't and will never realize that their "help" or even presence is unwanted in most parts of the world. If they want to "help" then I suggest that the American's stabilize their country before trying to stabilize another. That’s a no-brainer.
Oh, and their little idea of trying to rid the world of terror won't work unless they rid their own state of terror. Practice what you preach is all I have to say.
|
|
|
Post by pettyluv on May 3, 2002 17:52:11 GMT -5
<<Oh and how can you be so sure? It might sound shocking and absurd but some people have something called morals. A concept the American government lacks>>
Oh right, and those suicide bombers and those who condone that act are just righteous and kind people, yeah they really have morals.
<<That is one of the most disgusting statements I have heard. Brainwashed. That is what I label anyone who believes something like that. Former US president Harry Truman is one of history's most notorious terrorists. >>
That man was no terrorist! If anything he is a great American hero! If it were not for the atomic bombs being dropped on Japan, countless lives would have been lost in the invasion of the home islands! The Japanese were brainwashed! They would have fought to the death defending the homeland. It is estimated that 1 million Allied and Japanese lives would have been lost in that invasion. I label anyone who espouses that theory as leftist revisionists.
<<How do you know that he has a problem with democracy? >>
Hmmm well if we look at it from a logical perspective, one who supports a tyrannical regime such as the Tailban was, would obviously not support democracy, and especially not the views of the Enlightenment that this country was built on.
<<America hasn't and will never realize that their "help" or even presence is unwanted in most parts of the world. >>
In many parts of the world, our "presence" was payed for with American blood.
<<stabilize their country before trying to stabilize another. That’s a no-brainer. >>
Well, we are probaly one of the most stable countries around, the domestic and foreign policies of a government usually differ. We are not a superpower for no reason at all, we must be doing something right.
|
|
|
Post by Semi-Charmed.Life on May 3, 2002 18:57:36 GMT -5
"Oh right, and those suicide bombers and those who condone that act are just righteous and kind people, yeah they really have morals."
They sure do compared to those terrorists sitting in cabinet.
<<That man was no terrorist! If anything he is a great American hero!>>
Obviously you Americans would believe him to be a hero. Lets remind ourselves that Truman didn't really drop the bombs because he wanted to end WWII. HE was facing pressure from all sides. He faced domestic pressure from the American people to drop the bombs and he felt he needed to intimidate the Russians. Truman is nothing more than a terrorist.
<<They would have fought to the death defending the homeland. >>
And America wouldn't fight 'til death to protect their homeland and "freedom"? If I can clearly remember, you once said that America would do whatever it can to defend its "freedom" and state of "democracy" (or something of that effect).
<<Hmmm well if we look at it from a logical perspective, one who supports a tyrannical regime such as the Tailban was, would obviously not support democracy, and especially not the views of the Enlightenment that this country was built on.>>
I support some of the actions of the Taliban yet I am all for democracy. What makes Osama bin Laden any different?
<<Well, we are probaly one of the most stable countries around, the domestic and foreign policies of a government usually differ.>>
America a stable country? Why are there terrorists (which America insists on fighting) living in your country? Why are there so many homeless individuals dying daily? Why are there so many rapes and murders in your "perfect" country?
<<We are not a superpower for no reason at all, we must be doing something right. >>
How does being a superpower prove that America is a stable country? Hitler was a superpower in his own country but was he a stable individual?
|
|
|
Post by busybodies on May 4, 2002 3:38:24 GMT -5
<<But innocent people were killed, not our Goverment.>> That's what terrorists do.
<<Instead of raising conscousness about the trouble in the ME all it did was increase the hatred and prejudice some Americans have for non-American people, and make others think maybe the prejudiced people are on to something.>> But it certainly opened your eyes didn't it? It woke the Government up. Remember the outcry after 9/11? Remember how Colin Powell announced after the attack that Bush had had a proposal ready for Palestine before the attack could happen? What happened to that? As soon as America was attacked, they brought out this proposal to appease the Arabs. Now that the Arabs are quieter, the whole thing has been forgotten.
<<The US was attacked because of what it represents.>> And because of it's stand in this issue. You can't forget that.
<<But don't (that is al-Queda) attack us and expect us to scratch our heads, clean up the mess and keep going about our lives.>> Nobody's telling youto do that, and you certainly haven't done that. Just understand why you were attacked and try and do something about that.
<<The only reason I even know about this is because you told me.>> See? That's just my point. It's because the Palestinians are bombing the Israelis that anybody bothers. The Taliban destroyed the Bamiyan Buddhas. Remember the fuss all over the world? Now, the Isrealis are destroying the Church of the Nativity, the birthplace of Jesus Christ. People are being slaughtered in and around it. The Church is under attack. Nobody even raises a finger. Why? Cos the Israelis are doing it.
<<As to why the civil war in Sri-Lanka is not covered by the media, the sad truth is it does not affect us much.>> Neither did the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. SL gets into the news for 24 hours when a Tamil terrorist kills a Minister or blows up a temple. It gets on TV and in foreign press more for it's beaches and tourism industry than it does for the civil war. We're (or atleast I am) as afraid of getting killed by a Tamil suicide bomber as the Israelis are of getting killed by the Palestinians.
<<And I'm sure there are people that would raise absolute hell in the US if they found out about the war in Sri-Lanka and wondered why we aren't helping somehow.>> Actually, after 9/11 people sat up and began to take notice of terrorrism worldwide. America was the first to recognize the LTTE as a terrorist group (even before 9/11) and ban them. And it was about time. Even though the attack was horrific, it proved to be a godsend for countries affected by terrorism. SL is more or less peaceful now that people have realised that terrorism is a worldwide problem. The separatists are more cautious about detonating themselves in public after they saw the fall of their friends in Afghanistan.
|
|
|
Post by pettyluv on May 6, 2002 15:46:43 GMT -5
<<They sure do compared to those terrorists sitting in cabinet. >>
You see, it is comments like this that kept me from responding to your post for fear that I might say something that I would regret later.
To me it is absolute insanity to say that people who intentionally kill innocent women and children for their cause have a moral high ground over the leaders of my country. These people do not advocate the killing of innocents, while that is the suicide bombers sole intention. I sometimes struggle to see how such a seemingly learned person could make such blasphemous remarks.
<<Lets remind ourselves that Truman didn't really drop the bombs because he wanted to end WWII. >>
Leftist Revisionism, you gotta love it.
<<. He faced domestic pressure from the American people to drop the bombs>>
Well of course! The American people did not want any more of their boys to die!
<<he felt he needed to intimidate the Russians. >>
He gave the Japanese a chance the surrender but the military government refused.
<<Truman is nothing more than a terrorist. >>
Hearing this almost makes me vomit. I would really like you to say that to the face of a World War II veteran that would have sailed to his death in Japan if it hadn't been for those bombs. Do you not think that the Japanese or Germans would not have used these weapons on civilian targets if they aquired them first?
<<And America wouldn't fight 'til death to protect their homeland and "freedom"? >>
Japan was a fascist and tyranical nation, if their agression was not thwarted they would have moved further and further into Asia.
<<defend its "freedom" and state of "democracy" >>
Can you tell me with a straight face that Imperial Japan espoused the values of freedom and democracy?
<<I support some of the actions of the Taliban yet I am all for democracy>>
Which one? Destroying those statues? Or was it cutting a women's finger off for having nail polish on? I must have overlooked the positive contributions that the Tailban has made.
<<What makes Osama bin Laden any different? >>
Well it looks like after nearly 8 months since 9-11 it has become safe to openly support UBL again. Geez, he killed thousands of innocents, and supports tyrannical regimes.
<<Why are there terrorists (which America insists on fighting) living in your country? >>
Because we are a free and open society that allows all people to come here. They can take advantage of our democracy and freedoms to commit acts of terror against us.
<<Why are there so many homeless individuals dying daily? >>
Because in America you are guarunteed Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness, but happiness is not definite, you need to work at it.
<<Why are there so many rapes and murders in your "perfect" country? >>
Once again, because we do not live in a police state where the government controls every aspect of your life. But you have point there, in Nazi Germany and the USSR there was really low crime rates. I never said that America is perfect, but to me it is the best one out there.
|
|
|
Post by sophisticated_cat on May 10, 2002 14:23:20 GMT -5
<<<We would have been hit even if Israel never existed. We were hit because we apparently stand in the way of Islamic Militants.>>>>
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! After all of what we have told you, you still think that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The motives are not religious, they are political. No religious targets were hit. Only America is targeted. If it were religiously motivated, the attacks would be on all other countries and not just the USA.
“Americans as a culture are arrogant and power hungry--we walk out on international talks, we back out of agreements we make with Russia regarding nuclear arms and on Durban regarding our own problems with race not to mention the Palestinians. What happened is as much a part of terrorist action as it is a result of American international politics, and most Americans are, at least in part, aware of this. This is a wake up call to all of us to urge our government to behave differently on the international scene. No longer can we blindly support Israel without accounting for the very life that Israel negates daily in their very authorized, legalized forms of terror against the Palestinians. We must realize that we are truly a nation that has created a great deal of hatred and mistrust surrounding us--and for no reasons that have not already been staring at us for quite a long time.”<br>
<< Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Egypt, doen't Palestine have any military allies?>>
Well, Israel occupied the Golan heights of Syria and Jordan’s West Bank and Egypt’s Sinai in 1967, when three countries fought against Israel, and Israel won…even though in 1973, the October war, Egypt regained some of Sinai back, and eventually all of Sina, because of peaceful agreements…..the Arab countries don’t won’t to risk having more of their land taken, also Israel is the only one in the region with nuclear weapons and more countries getting into the war will lead to more destruction.
Another thing, there are plenty of Jews out there who are Anti-Zionist....http://www.netureikarta.org
|
|