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Post by .Hunting:High:and:Low. on Mar 9, 2002 17:15:09 GMT -5
I think it's very unlikely that someone in prison will have the opportunity to kill another inmate... And even if he would have the opportunity to do that, in my opinion, the solution would not be to just give him death penalty, but to make the security in prisons work better. Because it would definitely be very disturbing if anyone would have the chance to kill someone in prison.
Well, it does happen. I'm not sure at how often it happens, but it does happen...
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Post by 80s Child on Mar 9, 2002 23:44:41 GMT -5
^^Murders in prison happen more often than we hear about. Pedophiles are murdered frequently because of their actions. Same with child killers. I would like everyone in here who's brought up the Bible to please stop. Your personal religious beliefs have nothing to do with the way the law is made. Don't take this as an attack against your religion, because I respect your right to believe. But it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LAW. Period.
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Post by girlpoet21 on Mar 10, 2002 1:40:41 GMT -5
I agree completely with lillmissstrawberry. Thanks, great post. I just respectfully disagree with Pettyluv. I used to feel the same way she did though.
Sarah-Like we (or I) said, religion does have something to do with law. My religion has something to do with everything in my life, from what I eat, to what I say, to what or who I vote for, to what I wear, to how I decorate my room, everything. I know some don't understand that, but when you're as devout a Christian as I (and I think lilmiss and pettyluv) are, it permeates everything, and we accept and welcome that. (If I'm misspeaking for anyone please just correct me.)
Also, law does have something to do with religion. The first laws were generally based on religion. Many of our founding forefathers were known Christians, and talked in letters and such about how they related God and religion to some law or event of the day. Religion still has a lot to do with law. For instance I know of two legislators in the house right now where I live. One is Christian and therefore votes for things he believes in (but to be fair, the majority of his constituents share those beliefs), another votes against those same bills because he's an Atheist and will readily tell you he hates Christians. Religion always has a huge affect on people, whether they're for it or against it, they're usually adamant about their beliefs. Religion does have something to do with law, because without religion, many of our laws and really the laws in this world, would not have come about without its influence.
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Post by pettyluv on Mar 10, 2002 1:51:43 GMT -5
I would just like to make the point that because of many of reasons listed above by Girlpoet and my personal convictions, that the statement made by Sarah is not the policy of this board. You may feel free to use your religious texts to vindicate your arguments if you feel they are essential to your belief process. So just a word of clarification the above post of Sarah is not the policy of this Law board.
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Post by .Hunting:High:and:Low. on Mar 10, 2002 2:07:44 GMT -5
Just wanted to say (and this is a rarity ) that I agree with girlpoet and pettyluv. Although I am not a Christian or believe in the Bible, what you believe in and put your faith in does have a lot to do with how you do things in life and your view point. So far, I have heard good arguments from both Christian POV on the DP and whether the Bible supports it or not. Keep it going guys! I find it interesting, and it's good to know how you justify your certain beliefs and everything...
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Post by -*- Little Miss Strawberry -*- on Mar 10, 2002 14:24:17 GMT -5
<<<Also on another note, I love how people shun and scream about the Bible when it is used contrary to their beliefs, but when it is used parralell to their beliefs they welcome it with open arms.>>>
If that was directed at me, you're wrong. I am a total Christian and believe in the Bible and have never said anything against it.
As I feel I ought to point out... being a Christian, as girlpoet has said, is a huge part of me. It makes up who I am and influences the decisions I make about things. So how can I not let it influence my opinions on the death penalty? Thats why, when talking about my opinions, I would wish to mention the Bible, for example.
Anyway... back to the topic. The Death Penalty does not exist in the UK and I think a lot of people are glad about that. So how many people in the US actually support the penalty in itself?
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Post by girlpoet21 on Mar 11, 2002 0:12:03 GMT -5
Pettyluv-thanks for the clarification, I was wondering a bit what was going on. Fuzzy- Yes, very unusual! But welcomed. Thanks for understanding how our religion affects us. Lillmiss-I don't think she was talking to you, but I could be wrong. Are you from the UK? For some reason, I thought you were from the US. I think a lot of people in the US are for the death penalty, especially since 9/11. More people I know of want to see someone pay for their crimes and since the Attack, those crimes seem to be more heinous. Hope this makes sense.
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Post by pettyluv on Mar 11, 2002 0:21:23 GMT -5
No Lillmiss I wasnt reffering to you in that comment And I really think that a big chunk of the American population does support the death penalty. BTW both 2000 Presidential hopefuls, Algore and George W. Bush did not oppose capital punishment in their campaigns.
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Post by sunny.side.up on Mar 11, 2002 10:05:31 GMT -5
>>Well, it does happen. I'm not sure at how often it happens, but it does happen...<<
Ok, I didn't know that... I guess because it doesn't happen where I live. But still, even if it happens, that doesn't mean that death penalty is the solution. The solution, in my opinion, would be better security, because I think it's rediculous that people in prison get the chance to kill each other. If there's any place where it shouldn't happen, it's there...
~*Esther*~
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Post by -*- Little Miss Strawberry -*- on Mar 11, 2002 14:38:00 GMT -5
<<<For some reason, I thought you were from the US.>>>
lol, no I'm very happily British!
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Post by Toxic-Avenger on Mar 11, 2002 15:31:05 GMT -5
Whether some like it or not, religion plays a huge part in some people's lives and it cannot be regulated or put in a box because it drives home some points, people don't like.
<<The bible was a book written more or less 2000 years ago, and you have to view it in its historical context.>>
All of which are accurate.
<<Christ says not to kill, to turn the other cheek.>>
This was an act of defiance, not submission.
Also, the reason inmates kill other inmates is, they're already on death row, or they're serving long sentences. What else have they got to lose? They're already in prison, by choice and have chosen not to live within the ways of society. So what else can you do to them. Jailtime? Already there.
The death penalty was never meant to deter crime, it was meant to get rid of a bad seed or element. True, it won't bring the victim back, but it does give the family who lost a loved one, a sense of closure. <br> I am for the death penalty, but it has to be very specific. The problem now is, we no longer have the prudence and wisdom to handle cases which may require the death penalty. Too much law is practiced with respect, or lack there of, to how much money one has. In other words, whether you go free or not depends on how much legal muscle you can afford, and not really what you did or didn't do. The other problem is evidence of a crime can be submitted, even after it's been compromised in some way. Or it can be dismissed, because someone didn't like the way the evidence was obtained.
That said, the Bible does support the death penalty. See next post.
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Post by Toxic-Avenger on Mar 11, 2002 15:43:48 GMT -5
The Bible's Teaching on Capital Punishment by Pastor David L. Brown Th.M. Copyright © 1992
Capital Punishment -- Part 1
What about capital punishment. Should it be reinstituted? I am sure there is a variety of opinions among you folks. As with other topics, Christians need to know if the Bible sheds any light on the topic. For in reality, when the Bible speaks on a topic, it speaks authoritatively. So, in this study, I do not intend to address the diversity of opinions about the death penalty. My purpose is to spell out the Bible's teaching on capital punishment.
What is Capital Punishment? The logical place to begin is by defining capital punishment. The 1983 edition of the American Heritage Dictionary defines capital punishment as the death penalty. Certainly this is a concise definition but I prefer the definition from my 1899 edition of Websters International Dictionary. It says that "capital punishment" is having reference to or involving the head or life hence punishable by death.
This definition gives us an idea of the origin "capital punishment? The word capital means head. Historically, a common means carrying out the death penalty was to sever the head from the body. John the Baptist life was ended in this way.
Capital Punishment and the Ten Commandments One of the first things that anti-capital punishment supporters appeal to is the sixth commandment. The commandment says, "Thou shalt not kill" (Ex. 20:13). What does that mean? To answer that we have to look at the word "kill." The Hebrew word translated "kill" (Strong's #7523) in this verse is used 49 times in the Old Testament and in every relevant used means "to murder" especially with premeditation, according to biblical scholar Charles Ryrie. Further, when the sixth commandment is repeated in the New Testament a word is used that never means anything else.
The Sixth Commandment clearly is a prohibition against murder; not an injunction against capital punishment, the death penalty.
What is the Biblical Penalty for Murder? That brings me to my next question -- What is the biblical penalty for murder? Let's look at Genesis 9:5-6. God says to Noah and his family,
"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; and at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth a man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."
These verses are simply saying, murder is forbidden. Killing a man is an offense against almighty God for man is made in God's image.
The verses makes it clear. Capital punishment, the taking of the perpetrators life, is what God demands for the murder of a human being by man. There are some other specifics that the Lord laid out relating to capital punishment.
There must be two or more witnesses before one accused of murder can be put to death (Numbers 35:30)
A person judged guilty of murder must die. Do not allow any kind of bargain or ransom for his life. (Num. 35:30)
A Further Explanation of Murder Naturally, the individual(s) who carries out the capital punishment for the lawful authority was not considered a murdered. Likewise, the killing of enemies in war is not considered murder. Additionally, killings judged accidental were not considered murder, though there may be other lesser penalties.
Capital Punishment and the Law Given to Moses It should be noted that from Noah until the institution of the Law, the Bible only sanctioned capital punishment for murder. When God gave the law to Moses, additional things were considered capital crimes worthy of death.
Their can be no doubt that the Old Testament teaches capital punishment. It began by demanding it for murder and expanded its application under the Law given to Moses. Therefore, the principle of capital punishment is well established.
Capital Punishment -- Part 2 In our last message we looked at the Old Testament scriptures relating to capital punishment. There can be no doubt that the Old Testament clearly teaches capital punishment. But what about the New Testament? Lets take a look.
And part three is next.
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Post by Toxic-Avenger on Mar 11, 2002 15:44:49 GMT -5
Christ and Capital Punishment First, Christ never condemned capital punishment. In fact capital punishment was unjustly carried out against him. If capital punishment were looked upon with disdain by Christ, he had ample opportunity to speak out on the topic. In Luke 23:41 the repentant thief said he and the other offender had justly receiving the death sentence but Christ was guiltless. "And we indeed [justly]; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss." Christ could have said to the repentant thief, "It does not matter what you have done, capital punishment is wrong. It should be done away with." But, he did not say that when he had a golden opportunity to say it.
That brings us to the second incident that can shed some light of Jesus Christs' view of capital punishment. We find this in John 8:1-11. This passage deals with the Pharisee's sting operation relating to the adulterous woman. It was designed to trap Christ and make him reject the Law God had given to Moses or the Roman Law of the day. Christ did neither, but in fact invited those without sin to throw the first stone. John 8:7 says, "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." This is hardly a rejection of capital punishment. Christ did recognize a set-up when he saw one though.
Paul and Capital Punishment Human government is ordained by God. If you have any doubt about that just look at Romans 13:1-7. But what powers does God sanction for government?
THE POWER TO TAX -- (6-7) THE POWER TO ENFORCE LAWS -- (2-3) THE POWER OF PUNISHMENT FOR EVIL (even capital punishment) Note 1 Peter 2:13 before you look at Romans 13:4.
"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well."
Romans 13:4
"For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."
The sword is a symbol of the Governments power to use capital punishment. Dr Charles Ryrie says "it may be said that Romans 13:4 does teach the right of the government to take the life of a criminal, although what cases is not specified."
If Romans 13:4 is not clear enough for you, there is another incident that involves the apostle Paul that should make it clearer yet. Turn to Acts 25:1-12. The key verse in this section is Acts 25:11,
"For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar."
What Paul is saying certainly is clear enough is it not? He says, "if I have committed a crime deserving of the death penalty then I will not fight it. But I have not and so I appeal to Caesar."
The prerogative of capital punishment is established in Genesis 9:6, developed in the Mosaic law and reaffirmed in the New Testament. Capital punishment IS Biblical. It is for today.
Related Issues Some claim that capital punishment does not deter crime. If that is true it is because the sentence is not carried out speedily. Ecclesiastes 8:11 warns,
"Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil."
Justice is to be swift. With the cumbersome court process we have today it can take up to ten years before a sentence is carried out.
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Post by Soleluna on Mar 12, 2002 11:58:50 GMT -5
Since here you all insist in talking about the Bible, well then I'll try to make you understand what I mean. No one here seems to be getting my point. I'll try and explain better. The Bible was written 2000 years ago by people who lived 2000 years ago. They had a set of values and believes different from ours. That's why I say the Bible should be taken with a grain of salt. It should be read between the lines.
Death penalty was accepted and tolerated by the Romans who lived in 50 a. D. It doesn't mean it should be accepted now. And Saint Paulus was an integralist, he was first a prosecutor of Christian, and when he converted he put the same hate he had before with christians against non christians.
A last provocation: if you want to make the Bible say what YOU want, then take the 'you shall not kill' commandment like a 'don't murder' commandment. But don't kill means don't kill. Period.
Hope to keep this discussion happy and hope no one was offended by what I said.
Federica
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Post by Toxic-Avenger on Mar 12, 2002 12:30:56 GMT -5
<<The Bible was written 2000 years ago by people who lived 2000 years ago.>>
And so it has withstood scrutiny. It has been studied all this time and has been accurate.
<<They had a set of values and believes different from ours.>>
Not really. The laws then are pretty much the same as ours. Live within the laws of society, you'll be all right. Break those laws, and pay a penalty. There was corruption and dishonesty then, just like there is now. Remember the Greeks brought about Democracy, which is how the US came about when the Founding Fathers came up with our laws.
<<That's why I say the Bible should be taken with a grain of salt. It should be read between the lines.>>
For others, or for those that believe in what the Bible says? Is the Qu'ran to be dismissed for the same reasons stated above? <<The Death penalty was accepted and tolerated by the Romans who lived in 50 a. D. It doesn't mean it should be accepted now.>>
So is law, peace, love and family. What does the passage of time have to do with whether what we like or agree with is viable or not. The problem is, there will always be violent people who will kill others and why should they have it easy? I'm for the victim. The victim and family have rights too and should be remembered. If I had to pick thr rights of victims and families, or the rights of murderers, I'd have to go with the victims and families who have been robbed of lives and loved ones. Let's side with the victims and families, lets take care of them, let's worry about thier well-being.
<<And Saint Paulus was an integralist, he was first a prosecutor of Christian, and when he converted he put the same hate he had before with christians against non christians.>>
Since Paulus was Christian, he would not have hated those he preached to. This story was about God's love and forgiveness. It's a conversion story meant to teach us that none of us are too far gone to not only be forgiven of God, bit that He even puts us in places of authority to use us. King David made Paul look like a wimp with what he did and God not only forgave him but blesses his socks off. <<A last provocation: if you want to make the Bible say what YOU want, >>
The Bible says what it says, I have nothing to do with it.
<<Then take the 'you shall not kill' commandment like a 'don't murder' commandment. But don't kill means don't kill. Period. >>
It doesn't work that way. Don't kill means don't murder. You kill, you pay for the crime, which it is. <<Hope to keep this discussion happy and hope no one was offended by what I said. >>
Not at all, this is fun!
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