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Post by pettyluv on Mar 6, 2002 20:34:44 GMT -5
^^Girlpoet, I believe that there is Biblical justification of the death penalty. I point to
Romans 13 3-5
3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
It seems pretty self explanitory to me. It shows that government is permited by God to use this form of punishment. Number one, it says that the government "bears the sword." What do you do with a sword? You cut with it. You chastise with a "whip." You beat with a "rod." But you kill with a "sword." It says here that the government bears the "sword."
Now onto the secular side, as a sovereign nation we have the right to make our own laws and if capital punishment happens to be one, then so be it, for that right of government is ensured by our laws and Constitution.
True, the exacutioner is not acting in self-defense per se, but he is a representitive of the state which has felt hurt, and the exacutioner acts in defense of the state in which he represents.
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Post by Soleluna on Mar 7, 2002 1:07:59 GMT -5
Can I ask you to please stop taking the bible to justify your actions (or anyone else's actions)? The bible was a book written more or less 2000 years ago, and you have to view it in its historical context. But if you want to follow the literal meaning of everything that's written there, than we would still have slaves (s. Paulus says only that the masters should treat tham fairly). And also if you follow the Bible word by word Christ says not to kill, to turn the other cheek. In the old Testament the Bible says 'an eye for an eye,a tooth for a tooth' , but Christ said that you should place before the other commanments the commandment of LOVE.
If you view the Bible like a sacred book, thet has to be read between the lines, then you should know who saint Paulus was (I guess you took thet passage from Paulus' letter to Romans), and what was the social and historical context in Ancient Rome where he lived. If you are interested PM me.
And please keep in mind that there are many people here who are not Christian, or of different Christian denominations, so please stop waving your sacred book like it was universal truth. For many people, me included, it is not. It bothered me a little.
Sorry for the aggressive tone in the last part, but it really bothers me. THis is NOT the religion/philosophy forum.
Federica
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Post by pettyluv on Mar 7, 2002 8:11:57 GMT -5
^^I'm sorry that the Bible has offended you, as it was not meant to. But I took that passage as Biblical vindication for the death penalty in my debate largely with Girlpoet who is well known devout Christian. We were only debating the secular and moral implications of capital punishment, which are very important issues surrounding the debate. Sometimes law and morality transcend eachother in the mind of some.
I think that passage sends the right message.
You can take the passage in what ever context you wish, but I was using it for the sake of debate.
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Post by sunny.side.up on Mar 7, 2002 8:25:00 GMT -5
>>3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.<<
Yeah, right. Not all authorities are right. The Taliban executed people for teaching girls to write and read. How does that make 'the authority' 'God's servant'??
And I agree with soleluna that you shouldn't use the Bible to defend your opinion. To you what the Bible says is right, but to me - and a lot of other people - it isn't, not necessarily because it's in the Bible at least. 'The Bible says so' is not an argument. I might find or write some other book and declare it holy, but that doesn't mean that whatever is in it is right to you too, just because the book says it is.
~*Esther*~
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Post by KattyKatie on Mar 7, 2002 8:36:48 GMT -5
I don't think the death penalty is effective at all. Sure it gets rid of what we think of as menaces to society, but what punishment does it give them? The larger part of people sentenced to death are serial killers and sociopaths who have no value of human life what-so-ever or even believe that you can't hurt them because you aren't real (which is a sociopath misconception). But if it doesn't punish them, why do we keep doing it? Almost anyone who'd been in prison for over 20 years starts wishing for death, why give them the only release that they could possibly have?
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Post by girlpoet21 on Mar 8, 2002 1:34:03 GMT -5
Petty- Thanks for the Scripture verses, I'll try and study them.
To the others- I see absolutely nothing wrong with her using the Bible. As Petty said, I'm a Christian, she knows that, and my religion and beliefs have to do with everything in my life and everything I believe. If people get offended by it, just skip over those parts, they're pretty easy to spot. She's not waving the Bible around, she's giving what to me is a legitimate and relevant basis for her belief, and I respect her for that.
I am offended because it seems wherever I go on here, my religion and beliefs are attacked. I'm attacked for being "intolerant", yet rarely is that person being tolerant of me. Religion doesn't just belong in the religion boards if it is as big a part of someones life as it is mine. I can't, don't and won't separate my beliefs from my life. That is part of my religion. Petty was not attacking a religion, or anyones beliefs, she was just debating like I thought we were supposed to do on here. Sometimes the means for that debate takes different forms.
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Post by Soleluna on Mar 8, 2002 7:01:10 GMT -5
I was not attacking Christian religion. It just bothers me that the Bible is taken to justify every action a person has to make. I respect you and your religion and I think you can use your sacred book to make any point you want. BUT this is not a private conversation between you and petty. There are many other people here who are not Christian and who don't feel that the Bible is a justification for anything. Like I said, it is a book written 2000 years ago (I was Catholic and studied the Bible very much and still study it)
'I am offended because it seems wherever I go on here, my religion and beliefs are attacked. I'm attacked for being "intolerant", yet rarely is that person being tolerant of me. Religion doesn't just belong in the religion boards if it is as big a part of someones life as it is mine. I can't, don't and won't separate my beliefs from my life. That is part of my religion. Petty was not attacking a religion, or anyones beliefs, she was just debating like I thought we were supposed to do on here. Sometimes the means for that debate takes different forms.'
I was not accusing you of being intolerant, and I see your point there. But please, please keep in mind the Bible is just a book... for you it can be the most important book in the world, but for other people it just isn't. The government (even if it is the United States) is not a total authority though, and it shouldn't be, like you said. But neither should be the Bible. That's what I was trying to say.
If I have offended anyone in any way, I am sorry, but I hope you got my point of view.
Federica
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Post by pettyluv on Mar 8, 2002 20:19:49 GMT -5
<<There are many other people here who are not Christian and who don't feel that the Bible is a justification for anything. >>
But I am also sure that there are numerous people involved in this discussion that are Christian, and I feel the Bible can be very relevant in this discussion. The Bible, for Christian helps them shape their opinions on life. Just because you take offence from the Bible does not mean that you have to lash out at Christians.
<<The government (even if it is the United States) is not a total authority though, and it shouldn't be>>
In a sovereign nation I would I hope that the laws of this land are held supreme. The United States is total authority when it comes to affairs of United States. We are sovereign nation and we are the complete authority of our land. As such a nation we have the right to make laws and capital punishment is one of our policies, it is justified in our Constitution and that is complete authority.
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Post by NaruNarusegawa on Mar 8, 2002 22:41:38 GMT -5
I wonder how many people against the death penalty can go to a Mother who's child was killed, and tell them the person who killed their child is a "person" too and deserves to live, and be treated humanely.. hmmmph.
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Post by .Hunting:High:and:Low. on Mar 9, 2002 2:00:08 GMT -5
^^ Agreed. I am not at all afraid to admit that I would probably kill any SOB who had harmed my family. I would gladly go after the person. For example, I can't see how anyone can say that the person who killed the little San Diego girl (Van... the last name evades me, I'm sorry...) is a person. No, that is a monster in my eyes. No human being with any pride, dignity, morality or ethics can do something like that to a person, let alone a child. This sort of attitude "the killer is a person too" kind of talk gets me.
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Post by -*- Little Miss Strawberry -*- on Mar 9, 2002 8:38:47 GMT -5
I have wanted to bring up the issue of God in this thread but, seeing it's not a Religion and Philosophy thread, didn't want to. But now someone's mentioned the Bible, I hope you don't mind if I say a little something to pettyluv and anyone else agreeing with the Death Penalty and using the Bible as a justification for that...
I don't believe the Bible does support the death penalty. If fact, I think the message of Christianity appears to be quite the contrary. So,
1) the Bible suggests that forgiveness is offered to those who wish for it. That is, that God will forgive you as long as you show remourse and understand and believe that Jesus died because you've done wrong.
2) the Bible also suggests that God is the only one who can judge a person guilty or not guilty. So I don't see how human beings - who do wrong themselves - should be allowed to judge whether a person is worthy or not worthy of life.
3) the Bible also suggests that we should forgive other people and give them second chances. Indeed, a person who has committed murder is dangerous and ought to go to prison, but killing them cuts off their life and cuts them off from any second chances. I've lost count of the numbers of stories I've heard about prisoners who've become Christians. What I'm saying is that many people do realise what they've done and want to turn around and start again.
There are plenty more, but... please don't use the Bible as a justification of the death penalty. I am a Christian and I don't believe the death penalty is at all justified - not morally in society or within my faith and beliefs.
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Post by sunny.side.up on Mar 9, 2002 11:46:06 GMT -5
^ Pfhew, I'm glad someone said that! I totally agree... I don't know that much about the Bible, but I found it sort of hard to believe that it justified death penalty... Because just like lilmissstrawberry said, it's about forgiving each other. Why would ayone have the right to decide to kill another human, because yes, even murderers are human?
>>For example, I can't see how anyone can say that the person who killed the little San Diego girl (Van... the last name evades me, I'm sorry...) is a person. No, that is a monster in my eyes. No human being with any pride, dignity, morality or ethics can do something like that to a person, let alone a child.<<
I agree that what he did is inhumane. But he is still human. He does deserve to think about what he did and to try to make himself a better person. What would you say if your own brother (if you have one, hehe) would have killed someone (I'm not saying that, if you have one, he would)? Wouldn't you want him to get a chance to think about everything and to live until he dies a natural death?
~*Esther*~
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Post by NaruNarusegawa on Mar 9, 2002 11:56:05 GMT -5
What about the murderers out there who aren't sorry for what they did, and would gladly kill more people?
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Post by pettyluv on Mar 9, 2002 12:35:07 GMT -5
Littlemiss, I respect your opinion but that is not how I feel.
Also on another note, I love how people shun and scream about the Bible when it is used contrary to their beliefs, but when it is used parralell to their beliefs they welcome it with open arms.
Also what do we do with a person convicted of 1st degree murder sentenced to life and prison, and then when he gets there kills another inmate? I mean if he cant get the death penalty for anything, whats to stop him from going on a killing spree?
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Post by sunny.side.up on Mar 9, 2002 13:56:48 GMT -5
^ Uhm, I'm not sure if that was directed towards me, but I didn't use the Bible as a justification for what I believe... All I meant to say was that I found it hard to believe that the Bible justified death penalty, and the reason we were talking about that at all was because you were saying it did.
>>Also what do we do with a person convicted of 1st degree murder sentenced to life and prison, and then when he gets there kills another inmate? I mean if he cant get the death penalty for anything, whats to stop him from going on a killing spree?<<
I think it's very unlikely that someone in prison will have the opportunity to kill another inmate... And even if he would have the opportunity to do that, in my opinion, the solution would not be to just give him death penalty, but to make the security in prisons work better. Because it would definitely be very disturbing if anyone would have the chance to kill someone in prison.
~*Esther*~
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