Anti-Religion

[Michaelangelo]

First off, this is NOT a thread to rag on our religious buddies. So keep it nice and PC, okay? (And you religious folks, too. No raggin' on us!)
Anyway, I personally am against all forms of organized religion. Is anyone else out there? I completely appreciate the idea of worshipping and praying to a greater being. But religion, to me, has simply become another outlet for greed (albeit for wealth or for power) and corruption. Take, for example, the abuse of children at the hands of church officials. Of course children are abused by other people (sadly); I'm not saying ONLY church officials do this. But aren't pastors, cantors, priests supposed to be pure-- outlets for God? Let me know how y'all feel.
Love,
~The Kitten~

[LisaRocksYourWorld, yo]

Though I guess you could call me Catholic, I'm not happy with it.  I have disliked it for a long time, but that dislike has grown ever since I started taking religious education classes (more like "Hey, I'm right, you're not!" classes).  I really started feeling physically sick over my religion when the cases of priests who molest children came out.  There's literally hundreds and hundreds of cases nation/worldwide.  Think about it... For every child that has told about this immoral behavior, there has to be at least a few children who haven't told.  Scary.

Maybe when I'm older I'll look for a church that fits my needs.  I really want to be United Methodist, but I'm perfectly content with staying pretty much nothing at the moment.  My parents aren't big on religion.  They believe in God, but rarely, if ever go to church.  I didn't even know my father HAD an actual religion until a couple of days ago (He's Methodist, by the way.  Who knew?).  

It's possible to have a relationship with God without going to church, in my opinion.  On the rare occasion when I DO actually go, the hour consists of nothing but preaching.  Not about God.  About money, about how we don't sing loud enough, about how we don't answer Father loud enough.  Honestly, the priest at my church (although it's not "mine") has to be the crankiest son of a gun I've ever seen.  

Sometimes it annoys me that the church has an answer for everything, which is also why I'm somewhat against organized religion.  There's so many religions out there, and each one thinks they're right.  Chances are, none of them are completely right.  I have too many questions and whenever I ask them, there's an answer, according to the nun I spend an grueling hour studying with each week.  Has anyone ever lived to tell about what's in the great beyond?  I want to make my own morals, my own truths, my own values.  I don't want this pushed on me by a church.  

Again, maybe someday I will find a religion that I'm content with.  If so, that's great.  If not, that's great, too.

~Lisa

[.Hunting:High:and:Low.]

Kittenette, you're not the only one. And I agree with almost everything (if not all) LisaRocksTheWorld (BTW, I love your name ) said. I personally, don't like organized religion. I haven't found a religion that really speaks to me, or one that I could put all my faith in.

My parents were brought up in very strict religious families. My mom was brought up a Lutheran, my dad a Catholic. My dad was going to be a priest at one time too. One thing that ultimately got me was when my parents told me that when my grandmother went to church (Catholic), they threatened to "kick her out" if she didn't pay up. Which is wrong, I feel. No one should have to pay to be "in tune" with God.

Another thing my mother told me was that when she went to Sunday school, being the curious kid she was (and still is, curious that is, not a kid ), she asked something about the Bible. The teacher just looked at her for a second, kind of brushed her off and said something to the effect of, "It's the Bible, therefore it's God's word and that's the way it is." Meaning you never question what you are being taught.

I love how people have such an undying and unshakable belief in God or whatever they believe. It's a wonderful thing when that person has an open mind and brings about good with their beliefs.

But one thing I don't get is, we grow up with the idea that one should hear all sides to the story, right? Now I am not ragging on a religion, I am merely confused (I should probably ask this in another thread, but... oh well ). If the Bible is the word of God, why do people follow it when they have never heard the Devil's side? Perhaps God is wrong? Or is simply not telling the whole story? I don't know. But that's another reason why I'm not partial to organized religion.

[Toxic-Avenger]

Okay, let me fire off a few questions and not to rag.

I've always been confused by the term, "Organized Religion."  So do we want DIS-organized religion?  Because no matter what you go with, be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Shintoism, Buddhism, Wiccacraft, New Age, and even atheism.  No matter where you go, you are following a path and you can't be in one when following another.  It's like no one is truly a non-conformist because you are conforming to what non-conformists do.

In everything you do, there will be a set path or format.

<<religion, to me, has simply become another outlet for greed (albeit for wealth or for power) and corruption. Take, for example, the abuse of children at the hands of church officials. >>

And you are right.  There are many people that have taken advantage of others.  It sickens me that some have risen to such power that the Word of God is lost, and the center of worship is on the person.  The recent sex scandals involving children are a black eye to all the people who work for the church and try to do a good job and care for others.

It makes me wonder who these people really are and what were their intentions?  I begin to doubt that they suddenly threw out the need to be chaste.  This had to be planned and they were not in it to be preists and pastors at all.  Of course what I really want to say would probably get me banned.

If you are turned off on a church or denomination, look for another one.  Not all of us are nuts.  

<<Sometimes it annoys me that the church has an answer for everything,>>

Meaning . . . ?  I mean, are you annoyed that when you ask a question you get an answer?  Or is it one of those patronizing non-answers?  

Why can't there only be one religion?  Why do we have to have ten million different ways to do things when one just might fit the best?  I mean we live in a culture where we have to accept every little change, every little idea, every thought, everything.  It's becoming nothing more than white-noise and it's confusing to keep track of.  I mean, there's nothing wrong with being open-minded, but not so that your brain falls out.  

<< when my grandmother went to church (Catholic), they threatened to "kick her out" if she didn't pay up. Which is wrong, I feel. No one should have to pay to be "in tune" with God. >>

Tell her to find another church, that's not what's it's about.  That priest or pastor should be run out!  

<< "It's the Bible, therefore it's God's word and that's the way it is." Meaning you never question what you are being taught.>>

That teacher was foolish.  Even God tells us to seek knowledge.  The Bible teaches us, "Question the spirits, see if it's true."   Our church has dozens of different Bible studies every week or month.  Some of these are actually courses you can take.

As for the devil's side not being heard:  In any religion, there is good and evil.  Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, there is an evil force that tries to separate us from God.  I don't care about the devil's side.  I don't have to understand too much where he's coming from or what his side of the story is.  If anything, I should know him, so I know my enemy, but that's as far as I'll take it.  

There are sites on Satanism and the devil.  It will creep you out and affect you no matter how distant you think you are with spiritual things.    

[Larigirl]

I understand what you're all saying about organized religion and i agree with you to a degree.  I'm a christian so obviously my opinion is gonna be a *bit* different than yours    but i understand where you're coming from.

when jesus came, he came to abolish religion.  the jews had been living with like 600 laws or something andthe religious leaders were all strict about the laws.  jesus came and the religious leaders absolutely hated him because he went against their laws.  they said you can't do any work on the sabbath so when jesus healed a guy on the sabbath they freaked out on him.  he was always doing stuff that freaked them out cuz he was trying to make a point - God isn't about laws and rules, He's about relationship.  God doesn't require you to follow a list of do's and don'ts.... he just wants you to love him.  if you love him, eventually you'll wanna do what he wants.  

so.... all that to say that i think that all the rules and stuff that churches make up are unnecessary are even harmful to one's spiritual health.  churches that scare people into doing stuff and that are so strict on their rules are not of God.  God did not create religion, man did.

[LisaRocksYourWorld, yo]

<<Meaning . . . ?  I mean, are you annoyed that when you ask a question you get an answer?  Or is it one of those patronizing non-answers?>>

The church is always so certain of everything.  There are some things greater than us that we shouldn't even try to comprehend.  Don't get me wrong, there are some aspects of Christianity, such as the Blessed Trinity, that the church openly admits they can't understand.  But they are so sure of Heaven, of Hell, of Purgatory, things like that.  As I said before, no one has lived to tell about it.  I know this is where faith comes in, but some people are going to be awfully disappointed when they move on to the afterlife (assuming there is one).

[Michaelangelo]

"Why can't there only be one religion?  Why do we have to have ten million different ways to do things when one just might fit the best?"
You know, I would love to have to have something like that. And that's how it all started, really...Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all came from the same thing. But it's human nature to think one's self is better than someone else. For example, the way many Christians are so vehemently against homosexuality. What about the homosexuals who want to be religious? Are you going to make a new religion for them? There have to be many different religions because people need to separate themselves and feel like they're part of a selective group.
Love,
~The Kitten~

[.Hunting:High:and:Low.]

Why can't there only be one religion?  Why do we have to have ten million different ways to do things when one just might fit the best?  I mean we live in a culture where we have to accept every little change, every little idea, every thought, everything.  It's becoming nothing more than white-noise and it's confusing to keep track of.  I mean, there's nothing wrong with being open-minded, but not so that your brain falls out.

See, to a certain extent, you could be right. It does turn into white noise. But one way (I assume you mean Christianity, correct me if I am wrong please ) is not the best I don't think. It spurs conformity and we would all be believing the same things and I can't believe in something that doesn't feel right to me. Why should all the other ideas be nixed because you want it to be easier to understand? I don't think that that is what living is about. I think that part of living is weeding through all that white noise and making up your own mind. Remember, before Christianity there were other religions, and that does not make them any more right or wrong than Christianity.  <br>
Tell her to find another church, that's not what's it's about.  That priest or pastor should be run out!

To be quite honest, I don't even talk to that grandmother. But I have heard other stories about churches (though mainly Catholic) pressuring their congregation into giving to the church.

As for the devil's side not being heard:  In any religion, there is good and evil.  Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, there is an evil force that tries to separate us from God.  I don't care about the devil's side.  I don't have to understand too much where he's coming from or what his side of the story is.  If anything, I should know him, so I know my enemy, but that's as far as I'll take it.

Why don't you care? Because God told you not to? Because God said that Lucifer didn't do something that he was supposed to (follow God, I believe, right?).

There are sites on Satanism and the devil.  It will creep you out and affect you no matter how distant you think you are with spiritual things.

<snickrers> And how do those Satanists and devil worshippers get their info if the Devil doesn't even have a book of his own? What is there to follow? They are basically just following an anti-Christian religion. What they believe has no effect on me. As long as they are not harming other people, they should be given the same respect as every other religion, whether you agree with it or not.    

I don't want to sound confrontational or mean or anything. So I am sorry if I do. I am truly just curious.

[Toxic-Avenger]

To LisaRocksTheWorld:

Wouldn't it bother you still if you asked about the afterlife and all you got were vague non-answers or if the preist just threw up his hands and said, "Heh!  Who knows?"  The reason the church is so certain, and myself to an extent, is through research and study.  I beleive in what I am telling you, but I got that not because I woke up one morning and the information had been infused into my skull, but because I study the Bible and what it is trying to tell me.

The church, that is the people who go there, are certain of the things you mentioned.  You're right, it's faith.  But it can also be backed up with a certain kind of searching and research.  This goes back centuries, and it is always consistent. Some people are going to be disappointed because they want to go to heaven, but they think they don't have to beleive what God says to get there.  

==================================================

To Kittenette:
<<Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all came from the same thing. But it's human nature to think one's self is better than someone else.>>

I think you pegged it.  There are dozens of denominations (divisions) within the Christian faith, but so it is with the Jewish Faith and Islam.  Muslims, Sunni Muslims, Shiite Muslims, Reformed Jews, Humanistic Jews, Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Episcopalians, Baptists, Coptics, etc.  And God is not impressed with this church over another.

<< For example, the way many Christians are so vehemently against homosexuality.>>  

The issue is the sexual lifestyle, not the human being.

<<There have to be many different religions because people need to separate themselves and feel like they're part of a selective group. >>

Which both true and unfortunate.

==================================================

To FuzzySlippers:

<<But one way (I assume you mean Christianity, correct me if I am wrong please  ) >>

Yes, you are right.  

<<is not the best I don't think. It spurs conformity and we would all be believing the same things>>

What's wrong with that?  Christianity isn't about conformity, it's about accepting an aspect of your life, sin, that needs to be fixed.  Only God can fix it, and we can have that by inviting Him into our lives.  As for conformity, I'm still my own person.  I can come and go as I please, wear what I want, I have complete freedom to do certain things.  

Listen to loud music, hang with friends.  What I'm saying is, I'm not aware of any restrictions on my personal life.  I'd trade a R rated movie to go overseas for a week anytime.  What I'm saying is a whole life of adventure opened up for me.  I don't have any vices but I don't need them.  I know what happens, and I can very easily fall into one of them.  

<< Remember, before Christianity there were other religions, and that does not make them any more right or wrong than Christianity.>>

What if they WERE wrong?  Not everything is right, just because it's accepted.  

<<But I have heard other stories about churches (though mainly Catholic) pressuring their congregation into giving to the church. >>

Some do, some don't.  A church has bills to pay, but if raising money is the focus of why they're their, then perhaps it's better they fold anyway.
 
<<Why don't you care? Because God told you not to? Because God said that Lucifer didn't do something that he was supposed to (follow God, I believe, right?).  >>

It's a mix of knowing that the devil is evil, and God telling me not to tangle with him.  Stuff happens.  

<snickrers> And how do those Satanists and devil worshippers get their info if the Devil doesn't even have a book of his own? >>

Just reading about demons and such can give one the creeps.  It doesn have an effect on you once you think it might have some appeal to you and you go deeper and deeper into it.  There are just as many books on Satanism, for and against it, that people may find it pretty cool for them.

<<As long as they are not harming other people,>>

But they are harming themselves.  

<< they should be given the same respect as every other religion, whether you agree with it or not. >>  

Respect?  Perhaps, then again, I raise the question.  That's oone of the ten million ways of thought that has dulled our sense of to do.  Just too many choices.      

<<I don't want to sound confrontational or mean or anything. So I am sorry if I do. I am truly just curious. >>

Not at all.  These are fair, if not very good questions and I am happy to answer them.  I appreciate your non-confrontational stand, and don't worry about justifying your questions.  I realize this is the Internet and it's hard to gauge someone's emotions when something is asked or responded to.    

Have fun, fire away!   8)

[.Hunting:High:and:Low.]

What's wrong with that?  Christianity isn't about conformity, it's about accepting an aspect of your life, sin, that needs to be fixed.  Only God can fix it, and we can have that by inviting Him into our lives.  As for conformity, I'm still my own person.  I can come and go as I please, wear what I want, I have complete freedom to do certain things.

Ok, I give you that. But Christianity is right for you. In my heart and soul (as of now, it can change, I admit that, but it can change to a different religion other than Christianity) Christianity is not the absolute right (to you and to many other believers it is, but not to many more like me), it is one of many choices. My beliefs are so out of tune with Christianity that it would be a sore to the religion to make it the one universal way, basically saying that Christianity is right and all you other people who believe in different things are wrong. Although there are problems in the world today, I don't think that religion has a big part in that. But it is part of the problem. I think it is more about parents not teaching their kids right from wrong (e.g. Killing isn't right, some kids don't place a value on life anymore, as seen from the breakout of recent school shootings), a person's basic ethics and morals deteriorating, etc.

What if they WERE wrong?  Not everything is right, just because it's accepted.

And what if you and many other Christians are wrong? Like you said, not everything is right just because it's accepted. Christianity is a belief shared by many many people, but that doesn't make your belief any more right than the next person's religion. It's a vicious cycle and is best left untouched. I am a firm believer that all of the many religions in the world, each one of their God's leads up to one supreme being. And who is to say that that God is the Christian one?

It's a mix of knowing that the devil is evil, and God telling me not to tangle with him.  Stuff happens.

But that is your belief. There is a big difference between belief and fact. And no one truly knows what happened between God and Lucifer, if anything. Maybe if I explained my beliefs more fully, you could understand where I am coming from. So here goes: I believe in reincarnation. I believe that when we all "die", we go back to where we originally came from, the higher power. After that we choose what we do in our next life, with the purpose being to learn. We choose what will happen, how we will die, and the people surrounding us. There is no ultimate good or evil, they balance each other out and in turn both sides need to be there. Meaning God is not the good per se and the Devil the bad. All things good and evil lead up to the higher power.

Just reading about demons and such can give one the creeps.  It doesn have an effect on you once you think it might have some appeal to you and you go deeper and deeper into it.  There are just as many books on Satanism, for and against it, that people may find it pretty cool for them.

Yes, but it is the idea of them, and the possibility of them that gives one the creeps. I admit that there is the possibility that there are demons and other things out there, I believe in exorcism which is why I have to believe that there is something  to Christianity and the other religions that came from it. But again, we have no book from which the Devil can have his word, which is where Christianity is based, it is based on the word of God. Satanism isn't. It is based on anti-Christian views, and so Satanists can't say that they are truly following the Devil. Joe Blow can write a book on Satanism, doesn't mean that that is what the Devil thinks and wants. <br>
Not at all.  These are fair, if not very good questions and I am happy to answer them.  I appreciate your non-confrontational stand, and don't worry about justifying your questions.  I realize this is the Internet and it's hard to gauge someone's emotions when something is asked or responded to.    

Have fun, fire away!   8)

Well thank you Toxic. I appreciate that. I really do.  ;D

[Cassiopeia]

I'm against organized religion as well.  And I'm also agnostic.  I don't believe in anything.

[Toxic-Avenger]

<<My beliefs are so out of tune with Christianity that it would be a sore to the religion >>

Okay, fair enough.

<<to make it the one universal way, basically saying that Christianity is right and all you other people who believe in different things are wrong.>>

I could elaborate on that but I'd risk offending lots of people.  There are some areas of Christianity that can be offensive to others.  Ironically, Christainity is one of the most accepting religions out there.  You can be rich, poor, fat, ugly, a model, a bricklayer, any color, any race, from any country.  And you don't have to let go of anypart of your culture or upbringing.


<< Although there are problems in the world today, I don't think that religion has a big part in that. >>  

It depends.  Look at terrorism.

<<But it is part of the problem. I think it is more about parents not teaching their kids right from wrong.>>

ABSOLUTLEY!  AN ENTHUSIASTIC THANK YOU FOR THAT!

See, we do agree on stuff.

<<(e.g. Killing isn't right, some kids don't place a value on life anymore, as seen from the breakout of recent school shootings), a person's basic ethics and morals deteriorating, etc.  >>

ABSOLUTLEY!  AN ENTHUSIASTIC THANK YOU FOR THAT!

Sorry, but I had to highlight that again.

<<I am a firm believer that all of the many religions in the world, each one of their God's leads up to one supreme being. And who is to say that that God is the Christian one? >>

It's not so much as who God belongs to, as who God says He is.  It doesn't matter if you or I believe what God says, He still tells us how He wants to be addressed and related to.  To me, Christianity comes closest to that.    
 
Okay, not to attack reincarnation:  How is population of the Earth increasing, if we're just being put back as different people?  I don't remember choosing to have the troubles I have, and neither do others I'm sure.  "Hey, I wanna be audited by the IRS!"  I have a medical condition that will kill me when I'm sixty if I don't take steps to take care of myself.  I didn't choose that, why would I?  "I wanna die a painful death!"

And so if we are reincarnated(?)  What's the motivation for me to do any good for anyone now.  I've done bad and never really paid for it.  No karma ever came back and punished me.  But when I've done good, the returns were many, some were my personal feel-goodness and peace of mind.  

<<Joe Blow can write a book on Satanism, doesn't mean that that is what the Devil thinks and wants.  >>

You're right.  See, Satan doens't CARE what humans do.  He laughs at those who follow him and he hates people, since we are created by God, or Higher Power if you prefer.  The Higher Power represents good.  The devil doesn't care what God goes by, he just hates anything holy and tries to separate us from that.
 
<<Well thank you Toxic. I appreciate that. I really do. >>

I know.   ;D  It's fun actually.

[.Hunting:High:and:Low.]

I could elaborate on that but I'd risk offending lots of people.  There are some areas of Christianity that can be offensive to others.  Ironically, Christainity is one of the most accepting religions out there.  You can be rich, poor, fat, ugly, a model, a bricklayer, any color, any race, from any country.  And you don't have to let go of anypart of your culture or upbringing.

Acceptance is good. I never said that Christianity wasn't accepting. But I do not accept the fact that if I don't take Jesus to be my savior, then I am simply going to hell. I don't think that a loving God would do that. But that is me. But culture and upbringing are different than religion and beliefs. Why would I go to hell? I believe that Jesus brought a very special message, that he was a wonderful man who contributed a lot, I believe him to be more of a prophet than the "son of God" per se. Because when you get right down to it, we all came from the higher power, we are all His/Her/It's children.  At least that's what I believe.

It depends.  Look at terrorism.

But the terrorists we are dealing with now are twisting a religion to fit their means. Doesn't mean that the religion itself is saying "Go kill people".

ABSOLUTLEY!  AN ENTHUSIASTIC THANK YOU FOR THAT!

See, we do agree on stuff.

LOL Yep.  

Okay, not to attack reincarnation:  How is population of the Earth increasing, if we're just being put back as different people?  I don't remember choosing to have the troubles I have, and neither do others I'm sure.  "Hey, I wanna be audited by the IRS!"  I have a medical condition that will kill me when I'm sixty if I don't take steps to take care of myself.  I didn't choose that, why would I?  "I wanna die a painful death!"

Oh, don't worry. I'll try my best to answer your questions on my beliefs like you have done so with mine. I believe that new souls are born all the time. There are different "levels" one attains when they are "reborn", so the population increasing wouldn't be unusual. Of course you wouldn't remember the troubles you chose. You chose them (by my way of thinking) before you were "born", so you can attain a higher "level" when you die. You choose your best path to help you learn, and if dying from cancer is the best way to help you learn that, then your soul (or higher conciousness) will choose that. Take for example my dad. I told him my belief and he thinks the same as you: Why would I choose what has happened to me? He had an awful childhood; his dad beat him, his mother ignored him, etc. Maybe his higher conciousness wanted him to learn to not have to depend on anyone or anything. Or he needed to learn how to forgive. You don't know until you pass away and review your life. I read a book about how one can tell a "newer" soul from an "older" one, and it makes a weird kind of sense, I admit. And it may sound harder to believe in this than in Christianity, but it makes more sense to me.

And so if we are reincarnated(?)  What's the motivation for me to do any good for anyone now.  I've done bad and never really paid for it.  No karma ever came back and punished me.  But when I've done good, the returns were many, some were my personal feel-goodness and peace of mind.

If you do bad things in your life, you will have bad things happen to you in return. It may take awhile, but it will happen later on down the line.  <br>
You're right.  See, Satan doens't CARE what humans do.  He laughs at those who follow him and he hates people, since we are created by God, or Higher Power if you prefer.  The Higher Power represents good.  The devil doesn't care what God goes by, he just hates anything holy and tries to separate us from that.

Hmm... Ok, I accept that. But I just don't think so. Like I said before, I don't really believe in a "headmaster" of good and evil.
 <br>I know.   ;D  It's fun actually.

Isn't it though?  

[sunny.side.up]

I don't like organized religion, for the same reasons Kittenette, LisaRocksTheWorld and FuzzySlippers posted on the top. Organized religion could turn out to work great, but in reality, it hardly ever (if ever) does, in my opinion at least... I don't like how 'having a religion' makes you have to believe in certain things and do certain things. I think you should act the way you think is right, and not the way some priest or anyone else thinks.

>>all that to say that i think that all the rules and stuff that churches make up are unnecessary are even harmful to one's spiritual health.  churches that scare people into doing stuff and that are so strict on their rules are not of God.  God did not create religion, man did.<<

Exactly!

All religions are so sure that they are right, they usually aren't open to any other views. I have my opinions and thoughts about most things, but I realize very well that in the end I might turn out to be wrong after all. I believe the way to God isn't through church, but through yourself.

~*Esther*~

[.Hunting:High:and:Low.]

I believe the way to God isn't through church, but through yourself.

Really good point Esther. I agree completely! You don't need a church to feel God or pray to him/her/it. It may be a good way to get a gathering of people together, who believe in the same/similar things, but I believe that spiritual issues are better felt within yourself, not with a bunch of people and a "head of church".