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Post by pettyluv on Aug 30, 2003 12:20:25 GMT -5
<<I'm just afraid this is going to turn into another Vietnam war>>
What we are seeing in Iraq is very low level guerilla fighting concentrated in a small area of the country, and we are loosing about 5 soldiers a week. However in Vietnam it was all out guerilla warfare and we were loosing 500 soldiers a week. Big difference.
<<but it'll help if the UN is involved in the reorganization of the country. >>
I dont see what magical redeeming quality the UN has. What are its poster children of reconstruction? Bosnia and Kosovo? That hasnt been exactly a walk in the park?
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Post by busybodies on Aug 30, 2003 12:51:05 GMT -5
<<However in Vietnam it was all out guerilla warfare and we were loosing 500 soldiers a week. Big difference.>> The similarity I see is a)that America was an unwanted presence in both cases b)there is no visible end to the conflict.
<<I dont see what magical redeeming quality the UN has.>> They're certainly a hell of a lot better equipped to deal with the situation than America is. For one, there's less suspicion surrounding the UN trying to help out a country. What are the aftermaths of American wars? Vietnam and Korea? They're still trying to patch things up there.
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Post by pettyluv on Aug 30, 2003 13:09:43 GMT -5
I just see two fundamentally different situations. Vietnam was about protecting the South Vietnamese from VC invasion and takeover, and Iraq is about reconstructing a war torn country that has been ruled by a tyrant for decades. We need to remember that the reconstruction of Germany and Japan after WWII was not something that took a few months, it tooks years. I tend to think that we in this time have come to expect immediate results for problems that do not have immediate answers.
<<What are the aftermaths of American wars? Vietnam and Korea?>>
Korea was a "UN" war.
<<For one, there's less suspicion surrounding the UN trying to help out a country>>
How do we know this? I think a large turnover of power would cause more confusion and uncertainty that anything.
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Post by YourCapnSpeaking on Aug 30, 2003 15:14:38 GMT -5
God, what a rascist remark. Do you know anything outside your country? So it's a desert. That doesn't make it a God-forsaken wasteland. If anything, it's one of the most blessed regions in the world. This isn't the only place that has terrorists, and if it wasn't for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict there wouldn't be any terrorists at all.
It is not a wasteland because it is a desert, though it does help since there is almost no life there except the human kind. And it isn't just the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that have brought terrorits to that area. There have always been corrupt regimes in the Middle East dating all the way back to the time of Temujin (Genghis Khan). The Middle East has always been a place where it is easy to hide from authorities.
And I have been outside my country, not enough as I would like to, since I am only a teenager. I know a good bit about the world since I talk to people from all over it and I have many very well educated teachers that I've talked to. So I have a pretty good idea of what goes in the world outside of the United States. And just don't talk about the United States' own problems since you don't live here yourself.
It wasn't your problem in the first place but now you've got into it, I think you should finish it. I'm just afraid this is going to turn into another Vietnam war. I don't see any end in sight to this conflict, but it'll help if the UN is involved in the reorganization of the country.
Actually, the situation with Iraq was our problem. We finally just got a president that has the balls to do something about it. Clinton was a candy ass and everyone knows that. He cut down the military and boosted taxes. That is why the American people love Bush so much is because he is the exact opposite of Clinton. Now Bush may not be very bright ... but he knows how to lead.
And yes, if the UN does come in, hopefully things may get better. But I sincerely doubt it. Remember, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it and much of the world has not learned from history, the United States, Germany, and Russia are some of the few that have learned from history.
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Post by YourCapnSpeaking on Aug 30, 2003 15:20:42 GMT -5
Petty, I agree with you entirely about the United Nations. I said it could POSSIBLY get better because we'll have new ideas.
And Vietnam has never recovered from the war. After we pulled out (thank goodness) it fell to peaces under what was supposed to be a great government. Communism does not work ... Socialism does.
Busy, you also have some strange idea of what guerilla warfare and heavy conflict is and how strong America is. America and Russia are the only two superpowers still in existence today. America has the best trained military in the world and we've learned how to fight against guerilla tactics. Hell, our own infantry is trained in guerilla tactics in case they are trapped behind enemy lines and are forced to fight.
The American military also has the strongest military because we save our soldiers during much of the conflict. It takes a long time before infantry actually moves in. And by infantry, I mean actual foot soldiers, not tanks. Our armored columns are virtually indestructible, our air force is second to none ... face it ... the only country that could take out America right now is Russia and they are our allies.
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Post by paradoxPanda on Aug 30, 2003 17:34:09 GMT -5
There have always been corrupt regimes in the Middle East dating all the way back to the time of Temujin (Genghis Khan).
Genghis Khan was Mongolian....did he ever rule the Middle East? That IS an honest question, because I'm not sure of it.
<<I'm just afraid this is going to turn into another Vietnam war>>
Um, we don't have an opposing army to fight. NV had a large army using guerilla tactics, but as far as we know, these are relatively isolated incidents from individuals or small groups, possibly terror networks. Not an army.
I dont see what magical redeeming quality the UN has. What are its poster children of reconstruction? Bosnia and Kosovo? That hasnt been exactly a walk in the park?
And what are OUR poster children of reconstruction? It's never easy to rebuild a country, so you're not exactly showing a great baseline there.
I tend to think that we in this time have come to expect immediate results for problems that do not have immediate answers.
Possible, but a lot of people WERE expecting that most Iraqis would treat us as liberators. While it's hard to figure out what they DO want, we aren't it.
I think a large turnover of power would cause more confusion and uncertainty that anything.
That sounds like an apt description for what has ALREADY happened in Iraq. We need this to be an international effort.
It wasn't your problem in the first place but now you've got into it, I think you should finish it.
Gotta agree with that. Pulling out now can't lead to anything good.
Clinton was a candy ass and everyone knows that..
I'm not going to go there.
Hell, our own infantry is trained in guerilla tactics in case they are trapped behind enemy lines and are forced to fight.
Fair enough. But training is one thing, and it's different when you're on foreign ground, against people who are used to fighting in those conditions.
Our armored columns are virtually indestructible, our air force is second to none ... face it ... the only country that could take out America right now is Russia and they are our allies.
So YAY for our military....just because we're a superpower doesn't mean we can fix the world, though.
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Post by YourCapnSpeaking on Aug 30, 2003 18:01:33 GMT -5
Genghis Khan: He controlled the largest landmass empire ever. He made many conquests into the Middle East, though he did not have much of a hold. He did liberate the Middle East from a dictator or two in his time, though.
Clinton is a candy ass ... what more is there to it?
Actually, the North Vietnamese were regulars. The Viet Cong were South Vietnamese guerillas that fought against us. You could always tell who you were fighting whenever medical choppers came to evacuate wounded. The NV stopped shooting while the VC continued to fight. The NV honored many war time rules of engagement such as no firing on medics.
And actually, with a large military, you may not be able to fix it, but you can sure as hell help change it. And our troops are accustomed to the territory that we are fighting in Iraq. The conflicts in Iraq now are all urban based, one of the areas our troops are best trained for. And we have more than enough troops trained for desert combat that have fought in it before. I can name a few times: Operation Desert Shield, Operation Desert Storm, Operation Enduring Freedom, Operation Iraqi Freedom ...
Trust me ... if there is one thing our military is lacking, it is not desert combat experience.
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Post by paradoxPanda on Aug 30, 2003 19:23:09 GMT -5
Trust me ... if there is one thing our military is lacking, it is not desert combat experience.
I never said it was. In fact, I was more saying that in refernce to Vietnam.
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Post by strangelilboi on Aug 31, 2003 6:24:35 GMT -5
I'm inclined at this point to walk away from this convo. Its like getting too intense. And i dunno, i just dont want to get emotionally involved.
Either way, i'd like to say that its not combat is it anymoe, Capn....its a terror subduing, stabilising, policing, peace keeping role. ;D well dunno wot the smile is all about. soz
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Post by YourCapnSpeaking on Aug 31, 2003 10:55:28 GMT -5
Genghis Khan controlled the largest landmass empire in all of history. He never really set up too much of an influence in the Middle East, but he made a considerable few excursions into it to overthrow dictators of people that asked him for help or simply to find treasure.
The North Vietnamese were not guerillas. The Viet Cong of South Vietnam were the guerilla fighters. And you could always tell who you were fighting in the Vietnam War when a medical helicopter came in and wounded and dead were taken away. The NV stopped shooting because they obeyed many rules of engagement, such as not killing medics and allowing wounded to be evacuated. The VC were essentially, for lack of a better word, farmers with guns. They had no military training and did not know any rules of engagement.
One again, Clinton was a candy @$$. What more do you want?
And having the largest military in the world does account for something. We not be able to fix it, but we can sure as hell help change it.
And we have MANY infantry troops that are used to fighting in desert conditions. But now in Iraq, we've been doing urban combat and that is probably our highest skill level for our infantry.
But if you want to know some desert combat operations where we still have infantry from those, here's to name a few: Operation Desert Shield, Operation Desert Storm, Operation Enduring Freedom, Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Regardless of what you say, urban and desert combat experience is something our troops are not lacking.
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Post by YourCapnSpeaking on Aug 31, 2003 10:56:26 GMT -5
oops ... did not mean to post that thing the second time ... when I checked back at it, my post wasn't there ... so I figured it was never sent through ... just some rewording is all ...
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Post by m on Sept 2, 2003 8:44:17 GMT -5
How 'bout this? Clinton was a liar and loved to twist the truth. "I did not have sex with that woman." Bzzzz! Wrong answer. "Depends on the meaning of the word, "is" is." Wrong again!
The bombing of the U.S.S. Cole. "The United States will not stand for this." But nothing was done. The first attack on the WTC, nothing happened, the attacks on the US Embassy in Africa, still no action.
9-11-2001, World Trade Center attacked, thousands killed, President Bush reacts, the world is on our side. "You need to go after the terrorists!" We're told, so we do. "Airport security must be tighter!" So we do. "Uhm, guns and bombs won't stop terrorism." What will? Smoking a peace pipe? "We shouldn't be sticking our noses where it doesn't belong." We weren't.
"Making war on others doesn't stop anything." Well guess what, we were brought into the war when the first idiot terrorist lost control of the jet he had no business trying to learn to fly. 3,000 people were killed, Osama bin-Laden claimed victory, and pulled us in.
Most of the Middle East has been the site of wars and fighting since time began, they can't get along with each other let alone the rest of the world. You have teachers in Saudi Arabia yelling to their students how bad and evil the West is, long before 9-11.
You have the constant fighting between Israel and Palestine. I love Israel's policy of blowing up the homes of the idiots who strap on their suicide vests and stand in the middle of busy intersections. The best part is, many Middle Eastern countries blame their problems on the West. Then they wonder why we go into countries like Iraq to take out their pot-smoking leaders, and non-war advocates don't understand that it's just not part of the civilized world for people like Sodamn Insane to leave piles of bullet-riddled bodies around.
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Post by YourCapnSpeaking on Sept 2, 2003 15:39:58 GMT -5
Once again, Capn and Toxic strike again.
We make a good team, braw.
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Post by m on Sept 4, 2003 6:00:30 GMT -5
High-fives YouCapnSpeaking.
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Post by -*- Little Miss Strawberry -*- on Dec 5, 2003 10:03:32 GMT -5
I know I haven't been here for a long time but isn't it obvious that the war against Iraq hasn't worked? If you think it has surely you need to look a little at the truth behind these things.
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