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Post by 80s Child on Apr 22, 2003 11:36:14 GMT -5
The other thread was 27 pages long, so I decided to make a new one. The old thread is here. Debate away! (edited to change title since Iraq is no longer one of the primary targets of the War on Terror) |
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Post by -*- Little Miss Strawberry -*- on Apr 23, 2003 6:10:29 GMT -5
One Big Rush :~
Wouldn't people have loved to see us fail! But we didn't. It really doesn't matter anymore what anyone says. The US has succeeded, Saddam is gone, his party members are being tracked down or turning themselves in.
And are the people, who you went into liberate, happy? From what I've read, I wouldn't have said they were... so therefore, is it a success?
Still want to know why there are terrorist training camps in Iraq
Just to present a situation... some of the people that planned 9/11 were trained in the US. OK, so not specifically in terrorist camps, but they were trained there. Just because a country has terrorist camps, doesn't mean you can go bomb.
Terrorists are people too.
To be completely honest, that's a stupid statement. Because of course they are people, if they're not then what the hell are they?! Lol. And in my point of view, they're still people with souls who can still be loved and forgiven. Take a mother, right, she will mostly always love her children, whatever they're done. Terrorists were children once. Someone must love/must have loved them once. Without getting too religious, I believe God loves them. Either way, the statement is silly in the context you were using it.
Busybodies:~
^^ America's success depends on how Iraq turns out 5 years down the line. Somehow America imposing a secular democracy on them doesn't seem right. If they want to be governed by their religious leaders, so be it.
Agreed.
Didn't US go to war on the assumption of there being WMDs? And if that wasn't the reason, then the war was completely illegal (if that's the word to use). Nobody has the right to invade a foreign sovereign state just because they think that country needs a change of government.
Agreed. But everyone who supports the US will come up with millions of reasons, despite the fact that the war is immoral unless WMDs are found. The war is not successful if you don't achieve your purpose! Your purpose... was to find WMDs because Hussein is a tyrant, and who knows when he'll use them and who on. That's fair enough. If you don't find any, coming up with other reasons does not justify a large scale war, killing many and devastating a country. Just because there are other low key reasons that could make a war a little successful, if you do not achieve your ultimate purpose, it can never be classed as very successful.
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Post by m on Apr 23, 2003 10:55:44 GMT -5
And are the people, who you went into liberate, happy? From what I've read, I wouldn't have said they were... so therefore, is it a success?
The Shiite Muslims are so happy they're not only denouncing us but beating themselves senseless and bloody. They haven't been able to do that for 20-30 years.
Just to present a situation... some of the people that planned 9/11 were trained in the US. OK, so not specifically in terrorist camps, but they were trained there. Just because a country has terrorist camps, doesn't mean you can go bomb.
So wait until the situation boils over into uncontrollable violence against you?
Terrorists are people too.
To be completely honest, that's a stupid statement. Because of course they are people, if they're not then what the hell are they?!
I was being facetious. Terrorists are mindless freaks with a sexual attraction to death, murder and destruction.
Lol. And in my point of view, they're still people with souls who can still be loved and forgiven.
That's only if they haven't fully absorbed the darkness of what they have been taught.
Take a mother, right, she will mostly always love her children, whatever they're done. Terrorists were children once. Someone must love/must have loved them once.
They obviously don't love back, they've been taught virulent hatred.
Without getting too religious, I believe God loves them. Either way, the statement is silly in the context you were using it.
Of course He loves them. But these are the same idiots that strap bombs to their bodies so they can kill everyone in a town square or try to bring down an airliner because they're afraid of heights.
Didn't US go to war on the assumption of there being WMDs? And if that wasn't the reason, then the war was completely illegal (if that's the word to use). Nobody has the right to invade a foreign sovereign state just because they think that country needs a change of government.
We went into Iraq with the intention of deposing Saddam, disarming him, and finding WMD's. Instead, while we haven't found any WMD's, we have found the tools of a badly screwed up regime, torture cells, huge amounts of money -- in the tens of billions of dollars. And the people of Iraq were dying from sanctions, yet Saddam literally sitting on all this money and living in the lap of luxury. Ain't it strange that countries suffer while the leader gets fat.
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Post by .Hunting:High:and:Low. on Apr 23, 2003 12:22:10 GMT -5
Just to present a situation... some of the people that planned 9/11 were trained in the US. OK, so not specifically in terrorist camps, but they were trained there. Just because a country has terrorist camps, doesn't mean you can go bomb.
No they weren't "trained" here. They were trained to be terrorists in their OWN country, then came here to learn how to fly airplanes. I don't see how their being "trained" here to fly airplanes has anything to do with well, anything. President Bush has already said that if you harbor terrorists (ie. Have training camps, give terrorists a safe place, etc.), you will not be safe either, so yes, we can take care of the problem if the problem is presented as such. The US didn't provide training camps for these idiots, and for you to infer that is just, well, wrong (can't find a better word. Argh. Too early).
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Post by strangelilboi on Apr 26, 2003 15:29:36 GMT -5
I just been to the Dubai, UAE - ie the Middle East. And I'd like to add that, as much as they hate Saddam Hussain, They'd prefer to not have us there.
They consider it an invasion of Arab land by people who dont udnerstand and have little respect for the Arabic people and their culture. Especially the Americans whom they consider a sort of modern day crusades.
Personally. i love that Saddam is no longer in power. And that he cannot go on terrorising the Iraqi population. But then again, it was a mistake going headfirst into this war.
These people would rather put up with the known devil that allow outsiders to meddle in their affairs. They do not really want to be liberated - the way we see it.
And i disagree with the americans having control of Iraqi oilfields... why arent they given back to the Iraqis?
Furthermore, Sri Lanka has terrorist trouble most definitely. I know coz my parents are from there and I have family who live wit the possibility of death everyday from suicide bombings.
But the US have said their anti-terrorist mission does not include Sri Lanka. Why?
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Post by pettyluv on Apr 30, 2003 23:28:05 GMT -5
<<And i disagree with the americans having control of Iraqi oilfields... why arent they given back to the Iraqis? >> Which Iraqis to give them to, and which Americans are controlling them? <<But the US have said their anti-terrorist mission does not include Sri Lanka.>> Probably because although the situation in Sri Lanka is horrible, the terrorists there are not viewed as a direct threat to the national security of the United States. US Report Says Terror Attacks Declined Sharply Last YearThe State Department, in its annual report on global terrorism, says the number of terror attacks declined sharply last year due to increased international cooperation and resolve. Seven countries - Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Syria, and Sudan - were again listed as state sponsors of terrorism, though Iraq may soon come off the list. The State Department says there were 199 terrorist attacks last year, a 44 percent drop from 2001 and the lowest figure in more than 30 years. A total of 725 deaths were attributed to terrorism, a dramatic decline from the nearly 3,300 recorded the previous year, which included the victims of the September 11, 2001 terror attacks in the United States. The past year's most deadly single attack was the car bombing last September in a tourist area of Bali, Indonesia that killed more than 200 people. Introducing the report at a news conference, Secretary of State Colin Powell said increased vigilance, international cooperation and U.N. financial sanctions created after the September 11 attacks are definitely making life more difficult for terrorist factions. "It is harder for terrorists to hide and find safe-haven," he said. "It is harder for them to organize and sustain operations. Terrorist cells have been broken up, networks disrupted and plots foiled. The financial bloodlines of terrorist organizations have been severed. Since 9-11 more than $134 million of terrorist assets have been frozen. All around the world, countries have been tightening their border security and better safeguarding their critical infrastructures....." www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=C9E8FBBB-AE07-49CB-B5FA4F78C43BD848 |
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Post by busybodies on May 1, 2003 3:10:18 GMT -5
<<Probably because although the situation in Sri Lanka is horrible, the terrorists there are not viewed as a direct threat to the national security of the United States.>>
Then don't call this a war on terror. If you're targeting only specific countries and ignoring the rest (where terrorism has claimed and continues to claims 1000s of lives) then you'll are just being hypocrites.
<<Instead, while we haven't found any WMD's, we have found the tools of a badly screwed up regime, torture cells, huge amounts of money -- in the tens of billions of dollars. And the people of Iraq were dying from sanctions, yet Saddam literally sitting on all this money and living in the lap of luxury.>>
That still doesn't justify America going to war with the reason they gave. These torture cells and Saddam living in the lap of luxury doesn't threaten America. The fact that the Iraqi people were suffering and you freed them from their tyrannical ruler isn't the point here (though it could be good for them- let's see how things work out 10 years from now). The point is that Bush didn't have proof about anything. He invaded Iraq on a hunch, at the most. Nobody likes Saddam. Everybody's glad to see him out of power. But was America telling the truth? Obviously not. If Bush could free Iraq from Saddam even when the latter was no threat to America, why not do the same for Sri Lanka?
<<Lol. And in my point of view, they're still people with souls who can still be loved and forgiven. Take a mother, right, she will mostly always love her children, whatever they're done. Terrorists were children once.>>
They were children once. Now they're adults who blow up innocent civilians. Do you think the families who lost relatives to these killers think of them as children? Their souls have hardened. They're working for a cause that they believe in and nothing can stop them. I know that Christianity says forgive. I also know that sinners burn in hell for eternity, and that's where these suicide bombers belong.
However....
<<That's only if they haven't fully absorbed the darkness of what they have been taught.>>
It's not only what they've been taught. It's what they've seen and what they've been through. Do you think killing yourself is easy? Suicide bombers believe in their cause and believe what they're doing is right. It may not be because they've been brainwashed. Don't you think having your house torn down by tanks is enough to warp a person's mind? How about having your family gunned down in front of your eyes and you escaped death by hiding under a dead body? Is that enough to change the way they think?
I'm not justifying terrorism, and I'm definitely not saying that terrorists are NOT brainwashed. There are two sides to the story and it isn't the same in all countries.
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Post by paradoxPanda on May 3, 2003 14:53:59 GMT -5
Just to present a situation... some of the people that planned 9/11 were trained in the US. OK, so not specifically in terrorist camps, but they were trained there. Just because a country has terrorist camps, doesn't mean you can go bomb.
Exactly. They probably WERE trained here, both in the sense of learning to fly airplanes, and being given directions and advice by someone in this country. In a country like Afghanistan, even if the gov't HAD NOT supported terrorists directly, it wouldn't have been easy to locate and get rid of terrorist training camps and however else they do it. I'm sure if they had to, they would not have held it in something like a military base, but some inconspicuos building.
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Post by -*- Little Miss Strawberry -*- on May 4, 2003 8:23:37 GMT -5
What happens if some other country decides to sort out the problems of another nation, disregarding the UN?
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Post by paradoxPanda on May 4, 2003 8:51:44 GMT -5
If they're powerful enough, they just get away with it.  |
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Post by -*- Little Miss Strawberry -*- on May 5, 2003 4:42:39 GMT -5
And so the US, in disregarding the UN, has made it easier and more acceptable for other countries to invade ones with which they disagree. I thought you guys wanted democracy, but surely fighting without the UN will have fatal repercussions. No one will ever see it as an important peace-keeping force anymore, so the world is in disarray. That's the cost you paid, and perhaps you more than anyone else will feel the blow.
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Post by m on May 5, 2003 9:25:05 GMT -5
The terrorist and suicide junkies of 9-11 did train in the US, but that does not mean we deserved it, and it does not excuse what they did. Idiots in suicide vests at least can't fly airplanes.
As to ignoring the UN, we're just upholding the laws the UN didn't have the guts to uphold itself. Saddam is gone, the world is a safer place, the torture of Iraqi's is over. Get used to it.
As to the suicide junkies, blame the leaders like Yassar Arafat and Sodam Insane. Why don't they off themselves? Wait, we might have offed Saddam!
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Post by paradoxPanda on May 5, 2003 21:24:10 GMT -5
The terrorist and suicide junkies of 9-11 did train in the US, but that does not mean we deserved it, and it does not excuse what they did. Idiots in suicide vests at least can't fly airplanes.
That wasn't the point. The point was, we can't blame other countries for having terrorists trained there.
As to ignoring the UN, we're just upholding the laws the UN didn't have the guts to uphold itself. Saddam is gone, the world is a safer place, the torture of Iraqi's is over. Get used to it.
The UN is representative of the international community. By disregarding the UN, we are disrespecting everyone else in the world. Is that really making it a safer place? I don't think so.
We have no idea right now as to whether the torture is really over, how much is self-inflicted, and how long this current 'peace' will last. I certainly don't think a lot of Iraqis plan to 'get used to it.'
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Post by 80s Child on May 5, 2003 21:35:36 GMT -5
"The world is a safer place"
That's what they said after they bombed Afghanistan, but the country is still in pieces.
That's all I have to say.
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Post by m on May 6, 2003 8:06:47 GMT -5
That wasn't the point. The point was, we can't blame other countries for having terrorists trained there.
We can blame them when they take their new found knowledge against the people here. And we will take action against them, even if it means rooting them out.
The UN is representative of the international community. By disregarding the UN, we are disrespecting everyone else in the world. Is that really making it a safer place? I don't think so.
If the UN isn't going to do anything, then someone has to rise up and do it. Peace talks are great, but not when they either repeatedly fail or fall on deaf ears.
We have no idea right now as to whether the torture is really over, how much is self-inflicted, and how long this current 'peace' will last. I certainly don't think a lot of Iraqis plan to 'get used to it.'
Self-inflicted? I seriously doubt that the Iraqi's threw themselves in jail and hung themselves on meat hooks because they're such wild party animals. I really love how every little critisism of the US is being dredged up to discredit the liberation.
"The world is a safer place"
That's what they said after they bombed Afghanistan, but the country is still in pieces.
That's all I have to say.
They must not show the rebuilding going on where you are. Of course Afghanistan is peices, they've been at war for hundreds of years.
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