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Post by -*- Little Miss Strawberry -*- on Apr 8, 2002 2:31:42 GMT -5
<<<It seems you envy our power and prestige in the world.>>>
Just to make something clear, though I know that comment wasn't directed at me, PLEASE don't get into the habbit of thinking people envy you. You're going along the wrong track. I most definately don't envy the Americans! What good is power and prestige doing to help you? Obviously, there are positives too, but I enjoy being part of a strong economy yet a small and homely country. I don't envy you in the slightest. Please don't think I/we do. Be proud to be American, but don't start thinking you're the only country with prestige.
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Post by busybodies on Apr 8, 2002 6:45:00 GMT -5
^^^^ Hear hear! I'll be back with more later. I just had to applaud lilmisstrawberry. Excellent...
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Post by Soleluna on Apr 8, 2002 7:49:25 GMT -5
Arafat won the nobel price for peace, didn't he? So he actually accomplished something, pettyluv.
Btw, I am siding with Palestine, even if I think war is wrong. This is why:
1. Israel has better armaments and weapons, given to him by the Us, who should stay out of the conflict. If you want the state of Israel to exist so much, why don't you create it in your territories? you have so much land you can spare some for Israel. (this is a provocation)
2. What would you do if YOUR contry was taken over, and people told you you had no right to live there anymore, because jews were killed in world war II(a war with which you had almost nothing to do) and they needed land? What would you do if after some time the territories in which you were confined were invaded (because it was an invasion, from my point of view) and your people were killed?
3. Suicide bombers are the only weapons Palestine has.
Be back with more later
F
Ps. I applaud lilmiss too!! I completely agree
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Post by Soleluna on Apr 8, 2002 8:04:53 GMT -5
You all are talking as if a world war would have no consequence. BUT in a war people get killed. Innocents or not we are all the same.
A world war will never be the solution. It's not a matter of ' the us and the western world are stronger than the arabs' or vice versa. IT is people who are getting killed now and who will be killed in an eventual war.
I think Palestine and Israel should coexist in one state. I mean to say that the israelians should go and live wherever they please, in whatever country they like. If it is palestine, so be it. If they want to live in an arabic nation, ok. If they want to live in another palce, they should be welcomed.
But they should adapt to the rules of the state in which they go.
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Post by pettyluv on Apr 8, 2002 12:10:28 GMT -5
^^ Ok lilmiss, I'll leave that alone, but my ancestors left over there for a reason.
<<Arafat won the nobel price for peace, didn't he? So he actually accomplished something, pettyluv.>>
Yes, in 1994 he shared the award with Shimon Peres, since then there has been mass violence. That award came at a time when they were in a virtual detente.
<<Btw, I am siding with Palestine, even if I think war is wrong>>
Well that is good, but I am not siding with Israel. I just think that Israel has a right to exist. I also believe that Palestinians too have the right to self-determination. I believe that the refugees should be payed for their land as well.
<< why don't you create it in your territories? you have so much land you can spare some for Israel.>>
Come on. Do you really think that the Jews would really want to pack it all up, leave the civilization that they created their and go live some where out West here?
<<What would you do if YOUR contry was taken over, and people told you you had no right to live there anymore, because jews were killed in world war II>>
This is just not a practical analogy. But like I have said numerous times, I believe that Palestinians deserve self-determination.
<<war II(a war with which you had almost nothing to do)>>
(This is off topic but oh well) I beg your pardon! Nearly half a million American boys died over there for you! If it wasn't for us, Hitler would have won, or you would be Soviet spears of influence right now. Nothing to do with it, yeah right. Can we say Marshall Plan??
<<What would you do if after some time the territories in which you were confined were invaded >>
Well, in all but one of the Arab-Israeli Conflicts the Arabs were the agressors!
<<You all are talking as if a world war would have no consequence. BUT in a war people get killed. Innocents or not we are all the same. >>
Now, I wasnt supporting WWIII, Misty said that Arabs could win such a conflict, and I pointed out its absurdity.
<<But they should adapt to the rules of the state in which they go. >>
Wait, so you want all the Israelis to pack up and leave?? Why should they leave the civilization that they have created in the last 54 years?
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Post by sunny.side.up on Apr 8, 2002 14:25:19 GMT -5
>>Sadaam is just as much of a tyrant as Bush is. That is the simplest way I could put it.<<
Although I don't exactly like Bush, there is no way you can compare them with each other.
>>"There are enough islamic countries (although most of not all of the governments suck)." What is that supposed to mean? What if there are many Islamic states in the world? Are you offended? These Islamic nations have fought to be where they are today and I think they deserve recognition.>>
I don't think that there's anything wrong with the existance of these Islamic countries. I just meant that there isn't really a need for a Islamic country because there are plenty of those already, while there is no other country than Israel for the Jews. (I'm not saying that Palestine shouldn't exist) Of course I'm not offended by those countries, why would I??
Why is everyone referring to WWII? Israel was a Jewish country long before that. When Jesus was born in was Jewish already, which makes it at least 2000 years!
~*Esther*~
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Post by pettyluv on Apr 8, 2002 14:51:22 GMT -5
<<Why is everyone referring to WWII? Israel was a Jewish country long before that. When Jesus was born in was Jewish already, which makes it at least 2000 years!>>
Well there has not been a Jewish state in Israel before 1948 since 135 AD. That is when Jews were barred by penalty of death from entering the city of Jeruselum by Rome, and a pagan city was built and called Syria Palaestina. The idea of a Jewish homeland known as the "zionist" movement started in the late 19th century and Swiss Jew Theodor Herzl founded the idea for a state in Palestine. <br> In the 1930's large numbers of Jews fled to Palestine to escape Nazi persecution, and in 1948 the newly created United Nations partitioned the area of Palestine into two states, a Jewish and an Arab. Arab armies immediately invaded in rage and the rest is history.
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Post by Semi-Charmed.Life on Apr 8, 2002 23:25:54 GMT -5
"I just meant that there isn't really a need for a Islamic country because there are plenty of those already, while there is no other country than Israel for the Jews."
In my opinion, there is a great need for Islamic countries. We do not agree with the way most un-Islamic governments run therefore we have fought and will continue to fight for many Islamic states especially the ones, which rightfully belong to us. That does not mean we will barge into any old country and invade it. We have respect for others and their land but if we are not shown the same respect in return, then count on us to fight for our land and security. Also, we Muslims are treated like scum especially after Sept. 11th. We are known as the "terrorists" when many terrorists live in the Western World, which is known as "civilized". Civilized? Right...
"In the 1930's large numbers of Jews fled to Palestine"
Where the Palestinians accepted them. The Palestinians could have easily rejected the large population of Jews that were seeking refuge. But no, they were welcomed and this is the way that they repay the Palestinians. Talk about grateful.
Oh, and how many Jews did America accept in the 1930s?
"You all are talking as if a world war would have no consequence."
No. I believe that if a world war did break out, there would be serious consequences. Many people would die on both sides but for a reason. Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely against the death of civilians but it does happen. That’s why it should be prevented at all times but when two countries are at war, do you think they take the time out to think of the civilians on the opposite side?
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Post by pettyluv on Apr 8, 2002 23:57:32 GMT -5
<< We do not agree with the way most un-Islamic governments>>
So was the Tailban a model Islamic government? In all reality I do not know, what are the premises of a good Islamic government?
<<we have fought and will continue to fight for many Islamic states >>
Does this mean you have an agenda do "Islamify" the West?
<<Where the Palestinians accepted them. The Palestinians could have easily rejected the large population of Jews that were seeking refuge.>>
Well gee, in 1917 the British issued the Belfour Declaration that stated that the British supported zionism and a zionist state in Palestine. I don't really think the Palestinians had much say in the matter since after WWI Palestine was occupied by Britain. Also in WWII the British turned away many boats of Jewish refugees fleeing to Palestine. So don't make it sound like the idea of an independant Jewish state just came out of the blue, it was long envisioned.
<<Oh, and how many Jews did America accept in the 1930s? >>
I do not recall immagration being limited to the Jews during the that time, I mean today there are over 5 million Jewish citizens in the United states.
<<I am absolutely against the death of civilians but it does happen. That’s why it should be prevented at all times but when two countries are at war, do you think they take the time out to think of the civilians on the opposite side? >>
You say this, and then you have the audacity to critisize collateral damage in the War in Afghanistan?? Talk about hypocrisy! And there is a grieve difference between collateral damage and suicide bombings!
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Post by Soleluna on Apr 9, 2002 7:38:29 GMT -5
'This is off topic but oh well) I beg your pardon! Nearly half a million American boys died over there for you! If it wasn't for us, Hitler would have won, or you would be Soviet spears of influence right now. Nothing to do with it, yeah right. Can we say Marshall Plan?? ' My 'you' referred to palestine. What would you do if it was YOU living in Plaestine? I meant to say, 'put yourself in their shoes' It is palestine that had nothing to do with world war II, not the us.
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Post by Toxic-Avenger on Apr 9, 2002 8:14:55 GMT -5
As to the Palistinians not having any other way to fight back. Suicide bombing is pointless. There are many ways a soldier can deliver weapons. Strapping a bomb to your body and detonating it in a crowd of people is tactically self-defeating. Especially when your enemy has helicopters, tanks, rocket launchers and fighter jets.
As to how to deal with Israel, we should cut off all arms sales and and financial support. But that is unrealistic at best. Too many politicians here would block it.
Isreal and Palestine cannot co-exist in the same land, that's the whole reason this conflict has been going on. Isreal has a right to exist, but not slowly take over land that was not desiganted for them. At this point in the conflict, neither nation is not at fault. Both need to stop the fighting. If Israel will not listen to us, then they should look for political and whatever support somewhere else.
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Post by pettyluv on Apr 9, 2002 15:22:42 GMT -5
<<It is palestine that had nothing to do with world war II, not the us>>
Oops! I'm sorry for my misreading your statement! But actually Palestine was of strategic importance to Britain during WWII. Hitler did have aspirations of causing insurection in the area and taking it over.
^^And Toxic, you are right, the Jewish lobby is to strong in Washington to cut off aid. But I really think if Israel does not listen to what they are told by Bush, then aid should be cut.
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Post by sophisticated_cat on Apr 12, 2002 9:30:20 GMT -5
I was over at the BBC site and there were some comments there that were “my thoughts exactly” and I’ve copied and pasted them here. newsvote.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/newsid_1910000/1910288.stm“The state of Israel was created by depopulating and bulldozing what was then Palestine, with the blessing of a United Kingdom that was war weary and lacking the political will to resist Israel's highly organised terrorist campaign. Of course, those terrorists have gone down in history as glorious freedom fighters, like the French resistance, and now are now the people in power, leading the state of Israel into a conflict that will, on its present course, end only with the death of every last Palestinian or Israeli.”<br> “Bush likes to see the conflict in the Middle East in simple terms, of good and evil but he gets the two mixed up. This creates an ambivalence in his response. He must get it straight. The Palestinians are their defenseless victims. The Israelis are the thugs who ignore international law and steal land. “<br> “Having seen the television pictures and reports, it's hard to see how Israel can claim to be upholding democratic and civilised values." “I don't understand why the West can't call a spade a spade here. Israel is an outlaw nation and has been for at least 35 years. It is the living proof that those who are oppressed do not necessarily have mercy on those who are oppressed.”<br> “The US cannot bring peace as it is the real cause of the problem. It vetoes, supplies grants, allows lands to be confiscated and people to be humiliated. “<br> “The fact that billions of American tax payers' money is being used to finance Israel whilst its own citizens live in abject poverty is beyond human comprehension and good enough reason why the US can never be an honest broker. It's about time the EU took the initiative and imposed sanctions on Israel.
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Post by sophisticated_cat on Apr 12, 2002 9:31:15 GMT -5
“The US is the main reason that Israel has not followed the original UN resolutions The US is the obstacle for peace which using the veto in the UN which helped the Israeli to continue with their terror
“It is between Israel and the Palestinians who get no military aid from the US. Nobody puts US arms shipments to Israel on television for display. The Palestinians have had their land stolen or taken away based on the ridiculous preteens that God gave it to the Jews.”<br>
I don’t think it’s a matter of should it be an Islamic, Jewish, etc state, I think that that that region should belong to it’s people, who live there, who have always lived there. Muslims and Christian (and Jewish) Arabs have always lived there, None of them told the other this is strictly only Muslims and that Christians and Jews must get out and vice versa. That never happened coz they are ALL Arabs, they live in an Arab land, ALL around that region, all the nations around it, are Arab nations, speaking in the Arabic language. When that region was under Islamic rule, the Muslims didn’t tell the Christians to get out, because they know that it is also their land, that they are ALSO Arabs, and they didn’t force then to convert, and they respected their holy sites and didn’t destroy their churches. It’s the same in Lebanon, half of the population is Muslims and the other half are Christians…but why do they all live together? Coz they are ALL Arabs. It’s the same with most countries in the world, even though the religions of that country might differ, they live together coz they all belong to that country.
I don’t think that the Israelis distinguish between the Muslims and the Christians. They’ve been killing both Palestinian Muslims and Christians, destroying and bombing both Mosques and Churches.
The Arab Palestinian Jews have every right to live in that region, but the immigrant Jews do not. The Israelis nowadays are American, Swedish, British, French, African, etc Jews. (and a minority of Arabs) They are to go back to where they belong, back to America, Sweden, etc. Not barging into someone’s country, killing it’s people and saying that “1000 years before Christ there used to be a state called Israel, and only Jews should live there, etc etc”, etc. So basically what you’re saying is that since Britain (for example) was Pagan Before Christ, then that means that all Pagans nowadays should immigrate to Britain, kick the British out and say that “oh you know Britain used to be Pagan BC”. Old civilisations are run over by new ones, people change, convert, etc. Also something else, I wonder who lived in that region before the ancient Israelis? “After the preliminary spadework of his predecessor Saul, David defeated and subjugated the Philistines on the Mediterranean coast. He also fought the Aramaeans, the Ammonites and other tribes” (Through the Ages, by Alf Henrikson) As you can see the world population was not as large as now, and it was mostly tribes. Ancient Israelis happen to be one of those native tribes. (That explains why Arabs and ancient Israelis are called Semitic” They all belong to that region. As for the Israelis today, any Jew in the world today, European, American, African, Chinese have all got the right of an Israeli citizenship. They do not belong to that region, they are immigrants from other regions and places, while the only thing that they have in common is their religion, while the Ancient Israeli, they had everything in common, from where they come from, the geography, same features, same looks, same language, etc. (and therefore they would have looked very much like the Arabs).
<<I just meant that there isn't really a need for a Islamic country because there are plenty of those already, while there is no other country than Israel for the Jews.>>
I think you forgot that population counts a lot in this.
Remember that there are 1.2 Billion Muslims in the world, who are all over the world, but a lot are concentrated (forming the majority) in some regions (in the countries that they are in), such as Indonesia, the ME, etc while there are only some million Jews around the world, whom are not concentrated in any region, but are spread out, forming an extreme minority in the countries that they are in.
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Post by sophisticated_cat on Apr 12, 2002 9:36:07 GMT -5
On suicide bombing:~
“ Any sane man, having his house robbed, his family thrown into the streets, having lost his dignity and with no justice for his rights and freedom, will blow up himself and his oppressors.”<br>
“When is the US going to see that so-called terrorism is the only weapon left to the Palestinian people? They are a people living under an occupation that the world has done nothing about.”<br> “one I have been considering for quite some time in order to try to understand and empathies with the young Palestinians willing to commit suicide for their cause and their state. If Britain had been invaded in the Forties and held by an occupying force for decades, those resisting would be called freedom fighters. However, Palestinians, indeed all Arabic persons, are terrorists or 'evil' in the eyes of the US, it appears.”<br> “ I condemn suicide bombing, but tell me this, what is more powerful, a small bomb or a F-16 helicopter and tanks?”<br> “The US continues to take Palestinians as the terrorists on the Israeli soil. But Palestinians are desperate people who don't have freedom, right for self-determination and land. What if Germans had succeeded to invade London and stayed there for decades? I am sure that all Britons would fight to the end like Palestinians and they wouldn't be called terrorists.”<br>
“Do we really expect them to do nothing whilst 1600 Palestinians had died up to operation defensive wall? Sharon has hijacked the war on terror to propagate his own aims. Sounds a little bit like Milosevic to me!”<br> “Has it occurred to the Israeli government that suicide bombings are the acts of desperate people? And yet Sharon seems to be hellbent on making the Palestinian people even more desperate.”<br> Oh and Pettyluv, your signature "Give me liberty or give me death!" Patrick Henry---I think that’s what the suicide bombers-Palestinians are thinking.
And until it stops supporting Sharon's massacres in Palestine, which are taking place right now. Hundreds of people are being killed, a terrorist act that is going to create more freedom fighter the so-called suicide bombers
On western media:~
“ The US made no room for Arab nations to trust them in the peace process by supporting Israel in giving weapons, warplanes and more obviously, by their media reporting the events unilaterally in favour of Israel.”<br> “Why is the term 'illegal occupation' so avoided by the BBC in its coverage of the war? Is it forgotten that Israel's unremitting expansionist policy led to a war and an illegal occupation of a huge area of Palestine? Is it not also true that Israel has been permanently uprooting thousands of acres of olive groves and setting up colonies illegally occupying more Palestinian land in the creation of a 'greater Israel' with not a word of condemnation and certainly no action from successive American or British Governments?”<br> Yesterday I was watching CNN, and they were interviewing this man on how bad and frightened the Israelis feel, coz they cannot enter cafes, buses, etc for fear that they might be a suicide bomber. And I was thinking, “How selfish can you get?” You think “ohhh, im scared there might be a s-bomber in this café”, while you have destroyed Palestinians houses, restaurants, cut of their water, electricity, etc. Kill innocent civilians, etc and then you cry and say “oh we’re having suicide bombers”. Well of course you’re gonna have them! Do you really think that if you steal their land, kick them out, they are gonna leave you live in their land in peace?! Nobody wants to die, it takes a lot of courage for someone to kill themselves, these are acts of desperate people. Maybe CNN should have an interview with the Palestinians who have nothing, and listen to what they have to say. The Israelis should thank God that they have their houses, cafes, shops, etc, the Palestinians are left with nothing, but rubble.
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